QTing, meds, and tank Qs??

[rayjay]

This is embarrassing.
Ann, Saturday I spoke with the two persons who told me metro and prazi, fenbend, and formalin were not legal for sale in pet stores, and now the one at Aquarium Services (Big Al's in Canada) has told me, and indeed showed me metro and prazi in stock (combined). He said the owner was the one who previously told him that it wasn't legal to sell the metro and prazi, fenbend and formalin.
However, he said the store owner still says he cannot sell formalin any more, and, he doesn't have access at this time to supply fenbendazole, but stopped short of saying it couldn't be sold.
I haven't found anywhere in Canada so far, that would supply the Fenbendazole, but I do have a Formalin supply.
The manager at the other store that told me these particular items were not legal for a pet store to sell, says, that as far as he knows, it is still illegal for those specified items. I told him Aquarium Services is selling the metro and prazi but he didn't have any printable comment on that.
Some questions if you don't mind, Ann.
Aquarium Services doesn't stock separate packages of metro and prazi in their store but have API's "General Cure" in stock which consists of 10 envelopes, each treating 10g of water but to be treated day 1 and then again on day 3. Day 5 change 25% of water and treat with carbon.
Each package of powder contains 250 mg of metronidazole and 75mg of praziquantel.
Can this be used in the dosage prescribed, doing the treatment in one week instead of two separate weeks?
Can it be done but need different amounts of the medication?
Is there any point of doing these two treatments if I can't locate a source for fenbendazole?
While I have read your postings on the process, I've not seen any specific requirements of how much of each product one must use.
Thanks.

 

[ann83]

Ray, thats why I point to Big Al's Online Canada. I know you'd rather purchase locally and not online, but you can purchase the meds separately from Big Al's Online Canada.

You'd need to do them separately to get the proper dosage of both. Plus, if there's a high parasite load, hitting them all at once could kill the seahorse, so one at a time on the dewormers is safer.

Metronidazole dosage for feeding to artemia: If using tablets, crush one tablet into a fine powder. If using powder, dose 1/4tsp.

Praziquantel dosage for feeding to artemia: Add 10ml (~2tsp) of Praziquantel to one gallon (~4 liters) of water and mix thoroughly.

The only way to be really accurate is to weigh the seahorse and the med, and then tube feed the seahorse, blah blah blah, doesn't happen. So, the dosages above are good and solid and work. Really, you're trying to hit .5mg of praziquantel per gram of seahorse (or about 8mg for the average seahorse), and prazi-pro is less than 5% praziquantel by weight... and just trust me on the math. I don't have access off the top of my head to the reasoning behind the metro dosage, but doseage doesn't have to be 100% accurate, esp. if you're not tube feeding it.

Feed 2 meals (roughly 12 hours apart), one day a week, for three weeks, for each med.

Yes, it is still worth it to deworm with prazi and metro even if you don't have access to fenbendizole. Each hits a different set of parasites, so you'll at least be getting some of them.

Out of curiosity, what are you deworming Ray?

 

[rayjay]

Thanks Ann.
I will eventually be putting together the Reidi pair that I've had for over 3 yrs, with the Barbouri and Angustus (Australian) pairs that I just purchased on the 11th of December. There are also 3 pipefish (Doryrhamphus pessuliferus) that are in the Reidi tank that will be included. The Barbs and Angustus are in quarantine for a minimum of two months, and the 65g they will be going in is in temporary use at the moment housing the contents of a leaking 90g tank.
It may be some time yet before they get put together depending on how I heal from my operation.
I just want to be sure that I'm not passing worms of some kind from one to another.
Well, I'm off to pick up another batch of Reidi fry that I've been unsuccessful with now for the 7 previous batches I've had. Maybe this eighth batch will be the charm.
I might be calling on you for ideas, on another forum that is handier for me.

 

[ann83]

k, and you're familiar with the other (bacterial) risks of mixing species, I assume...

 

[rayjay]

I believe David has a protocol for a "blending" of species. I saw it once so I should be able to find it again. Have to be careful because the Reidi's were heavily treated with the Maracyns when they came down with what I was told was vibrio. The female even lost part of her tail.

 

[ann83]

Even David will tell you its not 100%. You know I believe it is possible, but regardless of what you do, it is still risky. David's protocol includes big water changes and UV's, and is anecdotal just like everything else

 

[silence88]

wow thats a lot of med info thats a bit over my head right now, i got three SHs from big als on boxeing day and i have to say they are awsome! there pretty small, one is vary small, they all eat PE mysis, one has what looks like fungus on his fin, its whiteish and a bit frayed, the other two look fine, I have them at 74 should i go lower? they were at 80 at the store for over a month i think, there in a 10g with some fake plants gracilaria algea and a bit of branching LR.

i got hikari prazi pro, and thinking of adding some to the tank and feeding some to the NHBS but i dout the larger horses will take them the smaller one might, could i mabie soak the mysis in meds?

I talked to someone that breeds discus and has metro so i can get that, but i cant find panacure anyware? is formaline for dips or parasites and should i look for it for the SHs?

i got some seachem paraguard is that anygood? should i dose maracyn 2 for the fin fungus?

and is there any other meds i should dose just to be safe?

also the store had some alligator pipes and iam going to get one or two of them as well, should they go with the SHs or two a diffrent tank wile there all being medicated? iam gessing same meds for pipes as for the horses

thanks

 

[ann83]

I'd separate the one with the fin problem and drop the temp on it to 68 degrees. Treat with Furan-2. Don't use Maracyn-2.

If you get the alligator pipes, I wouldn't ever put them in with the seahorses. At least not without doing a lot of reading into exactly what you are risking. Mixing seahorses and pipefish risks disease and/or death in one or both of the species because they have a tendency to transmit bacterial infections to eachother.

 

[silence88]

thanks i have never seen furan 2 but i will look for it, though iam not sure ware i can put the SH as i dont have any other cycled filters for a new QT, if i put him in a tank with just some live rock as a filter iam gessing the furan 2 will kill the life on it?

the pipes were in with the horses at the store for afew weeks at least, iam planning on mixing the SHs with some mandarins and mabie bangii cardinals so i thought pipes would be no problem, seems like a lot of people keep them togeather?

I tried feeding them BBS but they wouldent take it too small, the larger two are around 4-5" with tail and the small one 3"-, iam going to look for some small goast shrimp, you said inject the med into the shrimp, but goast shrimp seem so small and delicate i would think sticking them with a needle would kill them? have you ever done it before? i was thinking of mabie trying small guppys..

 

[rayjay]

First, I think you need to slow down your planning and get the immediate stituation resolved first. In your 10g quarantine, I wouldn't put any more than your 3 seahorses, but as Ann says, you have to remove one to a hospital tank for treatment. It may take quite some time before you know if the other horses will get the same problem as the afflicted horse already has.
Relative to the number of hobbyists keeping seahorses, there are not a lot keeping mixed tanks although some manage it. More, however, fail, and in doing so, loose many seahorses and other fish.
Seahorses and pipefish can be relatively immune to the bacteria/protozans they each have, until they are stressed at least.
But, when coming into contact with other seahorses and pipefish, they don't have that same immune factor to those introduced by the other seahorse/pipefish, and succumb to the new threat.
Your LFS MAY have already doomed your horses and the pipefish if the bacteria/protozans have already transferred to one another.
It is not an automatic thing, just a very high probability.
I mentioned to Ann that I am most likely going to put seahorses from 2 different sources and pipe fish in the same tank. However, to increase my chances of success, there is a procedure that can be done.
At the moment, I've only glanced at it so I have to go back to it and learn it before I plan any mixing.

 

[silence88]

i gess i will have to rethink abit then,my mandarin will be going with them for sure though, but i wasent going to put the pipes in the 10g with the horses sence that would be to many fish, i was going to put them in my 75g for now, the store also had afew snowflake eels with the horses as well if that matters

rayjay ware do you get your SHs? i just love these guys but i would like to get some actual CB SHs so i can be shure there clean and healthy but i know there arent many people breeding SHs in canada, i would like erectus sence breeding is a goal of mine and i read they are the best to start, have you ever bred your SHs?

i was hopeing i got a pair but now iam not sure none of them had what seemed like promant pouches, so i tried to get one with a flat chest and one with a more rounded chest is that the best way to try for a pair with young SHs?

and ann could you please tell if soaking the mysis in medication would be of any help?

 

[rayjay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14033820#post14033820 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by silence88
the store also had afew snowflake eels with the horses as well if that matters

That would just complicate things more IMO.

rayjay ware do you get your SHs?

I bought mine in Toronto and had to wait many years to get the ones I wanted.
The expensive ones you saw at your LFS would have been captive bred and the cost is indicative of that. You will NOT find captive bred anywhere near the price you paid for your horses. Almost all the horses I find around here, and indeed, most in Toronto, are net pen raised as pledosophy already mentioned. That is, they are raised in open ocean water, in large pens, and trained to eat frozen foods so people think they are captive bred. Even some dealers are duped by this, although most who say they are captive bred, know they are really net pen raised by the price they pay for them.
The problem we have with net pen's is that the horses are subjected to the same problems that wild caught horses have, and that is, parasites and bacteria that will affect them and of course, any horse put in with them.

i was hopeing i got a pair but now iam not sure none of them had what seemed like promant pouches, so i tried to get one with a flat chest and one with a more rounded chest is that the best way to try for a pair with young SHs?

I would think that most types at four inches as you mentioned, would already have the pouch for the males. The pouch will be below the chest, really, below the "abdomen" and extending down the tail section. I would be concerned about a "flat chest" horse as I would guess that to mean she is somewhat emaciated.

and ann could you please tell if soaking the mysis in medication would be of any help?

Not to put words in Ann's mouth, but I believe for the Furan 2 she meant to put the seahorse in a separate container and then add the Furan 2 to the container water.
Furan 2 comes in capsules where one capsule does 10g of water. For smaller quantities that you might have for the hospital container you would probably have to use less. One way to solve this is to empty the contents of the capsule in maybe a cup of the water that is in or going in the hospital tank, and then add a proportional amount of the cup of water + Furan 2 to the tank. i.e. container 5g then use 1/2 cup of the premix.
This adding to the tank DOES NOT APPLY to the previously mentioned treatments such as fenbendazole, praziquantel, and metronidazole, which Ann mentioned to administer through the foods.
If you can't grow the brine shrimp for gut loading, another option is, you could order like I did from livebrineshrimp.com and have it sent to the nearest boarder UPS store and go pick up the order.
Other than tube feeding the deworming meds, the only other thing I can think of would be to use freeze dried mysis and soak them in salt water until they are COMPLETELY hydrated and will sink. If the horses will eat that freeze dried mysis, then you could hydrate the freeze dried mysis in a concentrated meds solution and feed them that way. I haven't heard of anyone doing this but Ann would know if that could be a viable last resort option.

 

[ann83]

Order brine shrimp from LBS.com You knew you were going to have to do this before you purchased the seahorses, so this isn't an emergency or an unexpected situation. Just something you knew you were going to have to do, so...

You could try injecting large pieces of frozen mysis with the meds, but frankly, thats really difficult and hit and miss and we're getting to the point here where the options that would allow you not to order adult brine shrimp are more difficult and ridiculous than the ordering. I wouldn't even try soaking freeze dried mysis since you don't know what it will retain when it hits the water (and when it is snicked), and I've never known a seahorse to eat freeze dried foods.

The furan-2 is best dosed by being fed to live brine shrimp and then fed to your seahorses, but obviously, that is a little difficult for you now. So, instead, follow the dosage instructions on the package of furan-2. BUT, continue the treatment for 10 days. Do it in an uncycled tank, do 50% water changes daily to control ammonia, and remove uneaten food and waste after each feeding. Don't deworm the ill seahorse until after he has recovered and has finished the 10 day treatment.

 

[silence88]

I know that CB horses cost a lot more then the pen raised ones i have now, the ones at the store that were $200 were net pens as well iam sure, just larger vary nice ones

theres a store that has "austalian bred" horses at 100-200 but iam not sure what kind they are and if they are lieing about the source, then theres J&L that have afew dif kinds of SH but they are $130 and its not to clear weather they are PR or CB for sure but iam going to have a look at them when i go there again,the reason i whent with these "cheeper" SH BTW is that i coudent be sure if the SH i paid $100-200 for would be any healthyer than the ones i paid $25 for, plus they are all on a tropical system with other fish as well

i have thought many times about ordering from LBS to a mailbox accross the border, and then picking it up, when i was training mandarins onto frozen food, but i kept getting the run around and was scared i would be stoped at the border or something so i gave up, i email LBS and asked if they ship to canada, if not i will go with the mail box and start growing my own brine again, iam growing some now but despite lots of WCs and food it will take afew weeks at least, i plan on growing lots in the future sence i might need them for afew other things,

ann i found the furan 2 and iam going to get some as soon as i can, it comes in a pack of 10 pouches each treating 10g, so if i put the SH in a 10g with 5g of water in it and add half a pouch of furan then do a 50% WC a day then i would add the other half to the tank and so on every day for ten days, sence iam removeing half the water and meds during the WC, BTW why would the furan be fed to brine anyway? sence its for a fin problem not something internal i would have thought feeding would not do anything? not argueing just wondering

the two larger ones are 4-5" with there tails strait out so there body is about 2.5" i think, i cant see to well so its a gess

not matter how i get the BS, wile iam waiting iam going to try and inject cherry shrimp and see if that works, sence they are smaller than goast shrimp and then i will know if i can even inject a 1/2" shrimp with a needle or not, they have been at the store a month plus so iam hopeing afew more days without parasite treatment wont do them in, and sence they are now cooler and fed more and better food iam hopeing that should help,

thanks a lot for your help guys, if i ever do this agian i will have a lot of live brine on hand first,

 

[rayjay]

First of all, it is not illegal to bring brine shrimp across the boarder. I checked with the Fisheries department a long time ago and got an OK from them. I even printed it off and took the copy with me just in case. However, I never needed it in the many times I went across.
If horses are over $100, it's likely that they are captive bred. The ones at $200 would be an almost sure bet. Either that or the store is marking up fantastic odds called a rip off.

 

[silence88]

iam going to call the place in point roberts tommorow and see if they have anything against live stuff, i know brine shrimp arent illegal but whanted some fish as well, and they seem to be a real gray area, its going to be realy hard to order brine shrimp from LBS.com and not get some of those dwarf seahorses, i have whanted them for a long time, of corse i could always put a dozen in a water bottle and bring them accross in the cup holder lol,

 

[rayjay]

Just remember, that anything brought in illegally can mean an impounded car, plus a fine, and maybe some time.

 

[silence88]

iam just kidding iam not going to try and smuggle seahorses, that would be stupid.

today i tried injecting the mysis with prazi pro, it was not fun and i kept pricking my self with the needle, i got more prazi in me than the SHs did, after squishing afew i got one nice and full and droped it in the tank, then waited and waited and waited.....finaly one ate it, then spit right back out! and shook its head a bit, seems prazi pro mysis dosent taste too good, both the others tried it and spit it out as well, so now iam stumped, i would have thought haveing meds in the food woudent matter?

I whent back to the fish stores today, the better store has H borburi(i dont think i spelled that right) and reidi for $130, they also just got in some some net raised kudas, wich makes me question what kind i have? i thought they were reidi esp the tiny bright yellow one, but they look like the kudas quite a bit, iam going to try and post a pic of them if i can figure out how,
the store i got mine from had none left! so I think a lot of people are going to have dead SHs,

even my LFS(only one in an hours drive and sucks!)had some "black and yellow" SH, it looks like every store has seahorses for some reason? at the LFS i saw ONE SH that looked like a male, it was the only one with a noticable pouch i have seen, its pouch looked expanded and was vary visable is that normal for a male? when i have the brine shrimp iam going to go out and look for a male, sence iam sure i have three females by the look of them,

and I got the furan 2 and the one with fin rot is going into a 2.5 today with 50% daily WCs for 10 days like ann said

 

[David123]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14030399#post14030399 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ann83
Even David will tell you its not 100%. You know I believe it is possible, but regardless of what you do, it is still risky. David's protocol includes big water changes and UV's, and is anecdotal just like everything else

Oh but not so young Lady.

adjective
(of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research : while there was much anecdotal evidence there was little hard fact | these claims were purely anecdotal.

My writings of mixing same species/different geographical zones, wild caught/captive bred same species, and different species are from first hand accounts, from experimentation and practice.

I do not give out anecdotal evidence.

 

[ann83]

right back at you David.

...based on personal accounts rather than facts or research

My writings... are from first hand accounts, from experimentation and practice.

My bad, I was using the word anecdotal to mean "based on personal accounts" as opposed to something based on "peer-reviewed research". Screw the "not necessarily true or reliable" part. We all know that "peer-reviewed research" is not necessarily true or reliable either. And honey, you give out anecdotal advice all the time Anecdotal isn't a bad word, I give out anecdotal advice too. We'd both be a lot more quiet (and a lot more boring and irritating) if all we ever did was quote peer-reviewed research.

I believe a good QT and good water quality and UVs can help, but with how rapidly bacteria can reproduce... I assumed there wasn't "scientific experimentation" to back up the protocol

Geez, you ozzies have to take English words so seriously. One of these days you'll learn how to speak proper.

As for your mixing protocol, the point that I was trying to make is that it is not 100% risk free. If you'd like to disagree with that, I'm all ears.