Queen Angel - juv. to adult variability
- Thread starter mattsilvester
- Start date
copps
Premium Member
Again sorry for chiming in late here... before I comment on this particular fish I'm going to make some points about the reason there is so much debate about this fish... and many of the potential Holacanthus "townsendi"... 
1. The difference between blue and queens- there are few markers between juvenile blues and queens... the most obvious being the curvature of the fourth vertical stripe from the eye, which is curved in queens and straight on blues... there are a few other minor ones, including blue being "boxier" when small, while queens tend to have their dorsal and anal fins grow out sooner... when both species are adults there are many other markers, some of which I'll touch on later. These are mostly independent of the juvenile markers though, and will manifest themselves often times only when the fish grows large... "teenager" fish show varying degrees of these markers, which often results in confusion as to whether or not the fish is a hybrid, or Townsend's.
2. Natural variations amongst full blooded specimens of both species- Of the many markers of both adult queens and blues, there is variation within the species. It's not like the markers are black or white... they are shades of gray, even in full blooded specimens.
3. The hybrids are not all (or even nearly all) 50/50 hybrids- Many hybrids we see are the result of "accidental hybridization"... the result of two spawning pairs or harems of different species near each other, where the sperm of one species fertilizes the egg of another... these hybrids are rare and easier to tell as they are a ~50/50 mix. Queens and blues, and the hybrids, regularly pair and interbreed throughout Florida, where much of the collecting for our industry is. So, a fish can be a 50/50 hybrid... or even a 99/1 hybrid... or anything in between.
4. The tendency of captive raised fish to "yellow"- As if the dynamics of this weren't complex enough, there is this tendency for captive fish to turn yellower and sometimes more drab... this is independent of the natural variation we see in the wild with queens coming from the south of their range in Brazil to be more yellow than their Caribbean cousins... this color shift also throws off many of the markers that have traditionally been used to differentiate the species I believe! I underlined that to stress that important point!
So, the fish in question I still believe to be all or mostly queen... looking at the iris of the eye, the posterior edge of the operculum, the scales, and the crown... I cannot say for sure... and do not believe anyone can.
I will say that as Kevin Kohen said (good friend and fish master I respect alot!), Julian Sprung would be a good reference. Many of you know Julian as the Reef master, but Julian KNOWS his fish... especially those he's grown up near in Florida... I'll discuss these points with him at MACNA next month when we meet up next. A few years ago I collected a bunch of fish with Julian... A few were blue angels that we housed in his outdoor tank before he shipped them to me... these were collected in an inlet and were so orange I could not believe they were not queens! They were eating something there... and the color shifted within days/weeks back to yellow... it was really quite striking. A more recent trip last year let me go way off shore and bag some queens...
Copps
1. The difference between blue and queens- there are few markers between juvenile blues and queens... the most obvious being the curvature of the fourth vertical stripe from the eye, which is curved in queens and straight on blues... there are a few other minor ones, including blue being "boxier" when small, while queens tend to have their dorsal and anal fins grow out sooner... when both species are adults there are many other markers, some of which I'll touch on later. These are mostly independent of the juvenile markers though, and will manifest themselves often times only when the fish grows large... "teenager" fish show varying degrees of these markers, which often results in confusion as to whether or not the fish is a hybrid, or Townsend's.
2. Natural variations amongst full blooded specimens of both species- Of the many markers of both adult queens and blues, there is variation within the species. It's not like the markers are black or white... they are shades of gray, even in full blooded specimens.
3. The hybrids are not all (or even nearly all) 50/50 hybrids- Many hybrids we see are the result of "accidental hybridization"... the result of two spawning pairs or harems of different species near each other, where the sperm of one species fertilizes the egg of another... these hybrids are rare and easier to tell as they are a ~50/50 mix. Queens and blues, and the hybrids, regularly pair and interbreed throughout Florida, where much of the collecting for our industry is. So, a fish can be a 50/50 hybrid... or even a 99/1 hybrid... or anything in between.
4. The tendency of captive raised fish to "yellow"- As if the dynamics of this weren't complex enough, there is this tendency for captive fish to turn yellower and sometimes more drab... this is independent of the natural variation we see in the wild with queens coming from the south of their range in Brazil to be more yellow than their Caribbean cousins... this color shift also throws off many of the markers that have traditionally been used to differentiate the species I believe! I underlined that to stress that important point!
So, the fish in question I still believe to be all or mostly queen... looking at the iris of the eye, the posterior edge of the operculum, the scales, and the crown... I cannot say for sure... and do not believe anyone can.
I will say that as Kevin Kohen said (good friend and fish master I respect alot!), Julian Sprung would be a good reference. Many of you know Julian as the Reef master, but Julian KNOWS his fish... especially those he's grown up near in Florida... I'll discuss these points with him at MACNA next month when we meet up next. A few years ago I collected a bunch of fish with Julian... A few were blue angels that we housed in his outdoor tank before he shipped them to me... these were collected in an inlet and were so orange I could not believe they were not queens! They were eating something there... and the color shifted within days/weeks back to yellow... it was really quite striking. A more recent trip last year let me go way off shore and bag some queens...
Copps
humaguy
Premium Member
Again sorry for chiming in late here... before I comment on this particular fish I'm going to make some points about the reason there is so much debate about this fish... and many of the potential Holacanthus "townsendi"...
1. The difference between blue and queens- there are few markers between juvenile blues and queens... the most obvious being the curvature of the fourth vertical stripe from the eye, which is curved in queens and straight on blues... there are a few other minor ones, including blue being "boxier" when small, while queens tend to have their dorsal and anal fins grow out sooner... when both species are adults there are many other markers, some of which I'll touch on later. These are mostly independent of the juvenile markers though, and will manifest themselves often times only when the fish grows large... "teenager" fish show varying degrees of these markers, which often results in confusion as to whether or not the fish is a hybrid, or Townsend's.
2. Natural variations amongst full blooded specimens of both species- Of the many markers of both adult queens and blues, there is variation within the species. It's not like the markers are black or white... they are shades of gray, even in full blooded specimens.
3. The hybrids are not all (or even nearly all) 50/50 hybrids- Many hybrids we see are the result of "accidental hybridization"... the result of two spawning pairs or harems of different species near each other, where the sperm of one species fertilizes the egg of another... these hybrids are rare and easier to tell as they are a ~50/50 mix. Queens and blues, and the hybrids, regularly pair and interbreed throughout Florida, where much of the collecting for our industry is. So, a fish can be a 50/50 hybrid... or even a 99/1 hybrid... or anything in between.
4. The tendency of captive raised fish to "yellow"- As if the dynamics of this weren't complex enough, there is this tendency for captive fish to turn yellower and sometimes more drab... this is independent of the natural variation we see in the wild with queens coming from the south of their range in Brazil to be more yellow than their Caribbean cousins... this color shift also throws off many of the markers that have traditionally been used to differentiate the species I believe! I underlined that to stress that important point!
So, the fish in question I still believe to be all or mostly queen... looking at the iris of the eye, the posterior edge of the operculum, the scales, and the crown... I cannot say for sure... and do not believe anyone can.
I will say that as Kevin Kohen said (good friend and fish master I respect alot!), Julian Sprung would be a good reference. Many of you know Julian as the Reef master, but Julian KNOWS his fish... especially those he's grown up near in Florida... I'll discuss these points with him at MACNA next month when we meet up next. A few years ago I collected a bunch of fish with Julian... A few were blue angels that we housed in his outdoor tank before he shipped them to me... these were collected in an inlet and were so orange I could not believe they were not queens! They were eating something there... and the color shifted within days/weeks back to yellow... it was really quite striking. A more recent trip last year let me go way off shore and bag some queens...
Copps
Copps,
Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts with us...hope to attend Macna and say hello but my schedule may not allow...TK
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