Question about Sumps and over flow

[Aurori]

Hi there
I have been reading a lot about sumps and over flows and have a few questions.
I am getting a 90gallon saltwater tank that already has been established for about 2 years (no fish left in the system now though). The previous owner had it running on a canister system only.

before filling it back with water after moving it i want to set it up to be able to have a sump system going but i am running into a few issues. First off the glass is tempered (least that is what i was told) second i need to learn. Also I want to try to limit the appearance of hardware in the tank (if possible). Also the tank currently has hanging protein skimmer.

I have to try to limit the cost of this as much as i can so any suggestions would be awesome on how to do this. I realize I will be making most of this myself.

~Main question I had is if I used the canister filter as a pump from the tank to the sump. then let the water run through the sump and buy a pump to have it return to the tank. Is this an okay set up? Would i still need to get an over flow?
If yes what are my options for over flow? I can not drill into the glass and i do not want to risk an external over flow since i rent and have hard wood floors.

Thank you for your responses and advice!

 

[IanWR]

If you can't drill the tank, and don't want an external/hob overflow, you aren't going to have a sump. Either get a new tank, or have your equipment in tank (heater, hob skimmer, etc)

 

[uncleof6]

Hi there
I have been reading a lot about sumps and over flows and have a few questions.
I am getting a 90gallon saltwater tank that already has been established for about 2 years (no fish left in the system now though). The previous owner had it running on a canister system only.

Canister filters are a freshwater technology, that does not fit into marine systems. Also, the 90 is a big nice freshwater tank, but makes a poor choice for a marine system due to the dimensions: being taller, than wide, they do not breath well. This is fine for freshwater systems, but not fine for marine systems.

before filling it back with water after moving it i want to set it up to be able to have a sump system going but i am running into a few issues. First off the glass is tempered (least that is what i was told) second i need to learn. Also I want to try to limit the appearance of hardware in the tank (if possible). Also the tank currently has hanging protein skimmer.

I have to try to limit the cost of this as much as i can so any suggestions would be awesome on how to do this. I realize I will be making most of this myself.

The only way to sump this system is to use an HOB overflow, as already pointed out, it cannot be drilled. DIY solutions drain water, but do not take into consideration the needs of the system, in terms of flow rate, surface skimming/surface renewal. Decent HOB overflows are not inexpensive, and less expensive examples are way overrated, and problematic.

Realistically, you need to figure between 30 and 50 bucks per gallon to get a marine system up and running. That is with minimal stocking. This is not a cost limited hobby.

~Main question I had is if I used the canister filter as a pump from the tank to the sump. then let the water run through the sump and buy a pump to have it return to the tank. Is this an okay set up? Would i still need to get an over flow?
If yes what are my options for over flow? I can not drill into the glass and i do not want to risk an external over flow since i rent and have hard wood floors.

Thank you for your responses and advice!

As I said earlier, cannister filters are fresh water system technology, and really don't have a purpose in a marine system. Aside from that, you can't pump from the tank, to the sump, and then pump from the sump to the tank. The system will never balance out, and it will give you nightmares. Open (sump) systems work because physics says water in equals water out, and it cannot be any other way. Pumping out and pumping back in, will never be equal"”even with identical pumps, so either the sump or the DT will overflow.

A closed system works as well, but with a closed system you cannot use a sump. Closed system, the pump draws from the tank, goes through a series of cannister type filters, and then returns to the tank. This is a carry over from the freshwater end of the hobby, with undergravel filters, or plenum systems. These have been used for successful marine systems, but there are issues, such as how to get the water out of the tank, while getting good surface skimming/surface renewal, without sucking air into the pump. Getting more difficult if not being able to drill the tank.

 

[Aurori]

The System wasn't set up by myself originally. It is a friend who wants to get rid of the tank. She has a 45 gallon (empty used to be used for salt water) and a 80-90 gallon tank (she is not sure the actual amount) those are my choices. She said it was about 4 feet that is why i assumed it larger rather then smaller.
I have always wanted a tank so I figured this is my best way. I am fine with the idea of a HOB over flow I am just worried a bit. I hear that sometimes the siphon stops and it floods. Having hard wood floors that isn't a pleasant thought, that is why i was wondering if there was a different option.
As for the canister I don't need to use it I was just wondering if it would work as a pump either to the sump or from the sump.
I want to do this right this is why I'm trying to ask questions.
Now you mentioned the tanks don't breath well, being the only option I have at this time for the tank size, what would you recommend to help solve this issue? Also what HOB over flow do you recommend?
I want to do a sump system because i don't want to struggle with phosphate issues that a canister harbours.
The tank has a HOB skimmer but i want to get a skimmer and put it in the sump. At this point I have not got to researching what skimmer to get.
I was going to make my own sump and the idea behind it went as this.
20gallon tank
start with return from pump to live rock filter then a refium with sand bed and a bypass to the top off and return tank. I am a bit confused were to put the skimmer since some systems say before the refugium and some say before the return to tank.

 

[uncleof6]

It is not a bad size, just not well suited for a marine system. If you have the actual dimensions the size would be easier to figure out. a 4 foot tank could easily be a 120 (48 x 24 x 24) gallon which is one of the very best marine tanks around. (in a small tank size.) The 80 is more common in an acrylic aquarium than a glass aquarium, as is the 100 gallon (both 4 footers, both good marine system tanks.) I can hardly recommend buying a tempered glass aquarium, and I would look around for a non-tempered 120, so you have something to work with, but that is me. I am not critcizing you, just giving you some insight on what you are up against.

Surface area to volume ratio (a rather ambiguous way to put it) should favor surface area over volume. (actually depth.) When the height is <= to the width the tanks breath well enough, higher surface area. When the height is > the width, gas exchange suffers (low sruface area.) This is fine for freshwater as you have a higher amount of "oxygen holding" capacity than you do in saltwater.

To compensate for the deficit, a higher recirulative flow rate, with strong surface agitation, and adjunctively, a higher vertical mixing rate (power heads). In taller tanks, the potential for dead spots is higher.

Phosphates are not really the issue that marketing hype (for products) makes it out to be. Controlling nitrates is still the mainstay, and easier to accomplish by natural means, and less risky (phosphorous is essential for life.) Canister filters (not adequately maintained) are responsible for nitrate issues, not phosphate issues. Phosphate issues are caused by foods introduced into the system, salt mixes, poor choice of substates, etc, as well as a by product of biological processes.

As for HOB overflows, I would look for very long LifeReef units. They are among the best available, though even those could stand some improvement.

I just did a small blurb on sump designs, and some logic behind them here:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=22857002#post22857002

 

[Justin_S]

You could do an overhead sump where the water is pumped out of the tank and up above the tank into the sump... Your still going to have to put a bulkhead hole in the side of your sump but I'm thinking you shouldn't need one in your tank. There's info online if you google "How to overhead sump" there's a YouTube video examining the concept. (I find the flower pot shady.. But you can make design adjustments! Unfortunately it's not the most feasible plan of action in most cases unless you have a room or cabinet above your tank that your willing to climb to in order to make adjustments..

 

[Justin_S]

But in this case: You can have a sump! Just put a really strong shelf next to the aquarium because for a 90 it probably should be big (unless just for components. I rent too and I was concerned about this as well, ultimately I did not go with an overhead sump, I drilled my aquarium & I ended up just putting a second aquarium on my reinforced shelf. I built my own sump which I placed under the shelf. I'm running both my 30, and my 10 into one 29g sump. If your super worried after drilling a bulkhead in your aquarium that your overflow may get clogged or something: You could put a float w. solenoid setup like in an auto top off system ("autotopoff" Website) in the sump so that in case the water level gets too low in the sump such as incase that water is actually piling up in your aquarium: the pump shuts off since it's power cord is plugged into the float sensor's outlet so your aquarium doesn't overflow. Your definitely not going to be able to use an ATO if you go down this road but the concept should work so long as your choice of float doesn't get caught while your gone and cause the tank to crash), there's more foolproof alternatives to traditional floats for level monitoring as well.