Questions about Flow

[Reefer Frank]

I've been lurking here for many years. Not new to the hobby by any means. I've had more tanks than I can count the past twenty-five years or so since I was 15 and part of the Coney Island Aquarium Club. Started with freshwater back then and had a tank for Oscars; used to feed by hand!, an aggressive tank with Wolf Fish; real killers!, and a tank with African Cichlids. :spin1:

Hopefully, I am posting this in the correct forum and perhaps some of you might have experience with these topics.

After living in our new home for two years now, I decided to set up a temporary tank to make sure I am going to stick with this long-term and that life won't get in the way. I do want something much larger, in-wall, but I figured I'd start slow.

Current tank is a Reefer 450 on the main level of the house with sump and other equipment in the basement. I am going vertical about 15' and horizontal about 10'. I am not using the Red Sea sump, I have a Trigger Emerald 39.

FIRST PHASE

To get things started, I was running a Pan World 200PS rated at 1,750GPH. For the feed to the pump, I was 1" up-and-over the sump and the return to the tank 1" as far as I could go until I reduced to 3/4". It was easier for me to feed 3/4" tubing through my floor than PVC.

I had my 1" valve about half open and flow in the tank seemed fine.

SECOND PHASE

Still running the Pan World I wanted to clean up my plumbing, build a manifold, and set up my FMM module with flow sensors.

This is where the "trouble" started.

Once running the flow sensors I was only at ~550GPH. At ten times over I should be closer to 1,250GPH.

https://goo.gl/29o5Bh

That is a picture of my first phase setup and second phase the configuration was nearly the same only all schedule 80, with a few tees to run reactors, but all closed at this point.

Concerned I would not be able to feed my skimmer, carbon, GFO, and other reactors(s), I picked up a new pump. I purchased a Reeflo Suntail Gold rated for 4,100GPH.

By the way, I did swap out and test three 1" flow sensors, all with the same results. Off by a few GPH, but this is to be expected.

THIRD PHASE

Setup the Suntail Gold but right off the bat reduced the feed from 2" to 1" and went up-and-over the sump. Also reduced the return from 1.5" to 1". Still running the same manifold and other plumbing as with the Pan World with all reactor valves still off. Manifold is still 1" until I get to the 3/4" reduction at the end to go through the floor and up to the main floor.

With my tank valve all the way open and the Suntail Gold running, I only made it to 710GPH. Not nearly what I expected. I expected far more than this.

This is disappointing not only because of the flow but power consumption. I was 1.9AMP steady with the Pan World and now 4.9AMP steady with the Suntail Gold.

BulkReefSupply could not really help with this so I have been going back and forth with the manufacturer and they have been GREAT!

FOURTH PHASE

I sent them a picture of my setup and was told to NEVER go up-and-over the sump. Air will get trapped in the upside-down "U" and that was causing my problem(s); from flow to power. My friend completely disagreed with this and well, he was right. At least in my case, it didn't make a difference.

So, drained my sump, installed a 2" bulkhead, and fed the pump with straight 2". That is the ONLY change I made.

Common sense would tell you that is an improvement and increase to 2" will 100% increase flow.

Not the case. I went down to 690GPH and went from 4.9AMP to 5.2AMP! In addition, the temperature in my tank has gone up about 4-degrees, sometimes 5-degrees! I picked up some fans to give that a shot. If that doesn't work, I'll have to add a chiller. Mind you, my basement is a cool 60-degrees. Main level of my house is always 69-degrees.

Here is a picture of my current manifold but this is prior to drilling the sump. Everything is the same except that aspect.

https://goo.gl/AxPoH4

As a test, I set up my protein skimmer and bumped it up to 500GPH. With my tank at 690GPH I dropped to 660GPH by adding 500GPH to my skimmer. But, the skimmer is literally a foot away from the pump, so I think this makes sense. Seems there is a lot more power closer to the pump. But even so, I should still get more to my tank I think.

My friend told me to stop wasting my time, I am just "chasing a number". Flow in the tank is great and keep in mind the Reefer 450 only has a single 3/4" return. At low pressure 3/4" pipe should handle roughly 1,400GPH. Not sure how accurate the chart is that I am reading. Plus, the chart is likely going by schedule 40, I am using 80 with thicker walls, but still, don't think that would drop me to 720GPH.

WHAT'S NEXT?

This is where I need help and/or advice.

I have a few options here.

1. Stop now and leave everything as-is. I have been troubleshooting this for about 4-months by the way. Cycled my tank long ago and have a couple Clowns, Tang, and Fox Face. :fun5: I am also about $2K into plumbing, schedule 80 adds up quickly! That's a lot of coral. :debi:
   -
2. From the second picture above, remove the four tees from the manifold, run straight pipe, and see what the results are.
   -
3. The manufacturer says the water is churning at the "rest areas", I am assuming the tees. That's causing back-pressure and a traffic jam inside the pump head, which is causing the low-flow numbers to the tank and the increased temperature. Recommends I move the pump to the right and go straight up to my tank and tee left to my manifold to feed reactors and cap the end of the manifold. Before I consider this, I will try my option two from above. If that doesn't do anything at all, then the tees are not the issue so moving the pump would be useless and a waste of time.

Sorry for the long post. I am hoping with all of the users here someone has some experience with the flow and similar issue(s).

Thank you all!

 

[mcgyvr]

All your output plumbing is way undersized and you are just choking the heck out of the pump..
No need for sch 80.. use 1.5" 40 all the way and split to to 2 x 1" over the top returns.. problem solved..

Perfect post of what not to do though

 

[Reefer Frank]

That's what I was trying to avoid, scrapping my 1". Even at 1.5" off the pump, the last 8' going up to the tank has to be reduced to 3/4" tubing. The Reefer 450 has a single return at 3/4".

I know there is no need for schedule 80, but I like it, and I'd rather not sit around and paint schedule 40.

Thanks. :thumbsup:

All your output plumbing is way undersized and you are just choking the heck out of the pump..
No need for sch 80.. use 1.5" 40 all the way and split to to 2 x 1" over the top returns.. problem solved..

Perfect post of what not to do though

 

[mcgyvr]

. Even at 1.5" off the pump, the last 8' going up to the tank has to be reduced to 3/4" tubing. The Reefer 450 has a single return at 3/4".

I know there is no need for schedule 80, but I like it, and I'd rather not sit around and paint schedule 40.

You can buy colored sch 40..
You don't need to use the 3/4" return.. cap it off and do over the top return pipes..
Or you can reduce it to 3/4" if you want in the last 3" or whatever... No reason it must be 8'...

Not only did you buy a new pump you are also paying more in energy which adds up.. If thats not a concern to you then fine.. But you could have a far more energy efficient pump if your plumbing was better suited for the job..

 

[ca1ore]

Run your specs through the RC head loss calculator and see what you get (Panworld 200 = Blueline HD70). With all the restrictions, I'm not surprised you only got 550 with that pump. I run a PW200, cannot speak to the suntail pump. The PW/Iwaki pumps generally do better than any others against pressure. Also, FWIW, the reason there is 'a lot more power' at the pump is that it's not pushing against any head pressure. So, either live with what you have, or replace the current pipes with something more sensible. Getting rid of the up-and-over was a good start, even if it didn't really contribute significantly to the actual flow, it avoids other problems. While you might not have 'liked' the answer, McG is right that Sch 80 is both unnecessary and actually limiting because of the ID constraints. My preferred approach these days is to use Flex PVC. It avoids tight bends (never heard the term 'rest areas' before) and flow-killing elbows. Manifolds kill flow as well; might want to consider a small dedicated manifold pump. Any plumbing steals flow - including valves and the Apex flow meters.

I test ran my PW200 through a 25' run of 1 1/2" flex PVC (12 of them vertical feet) and the 2" Apex flow meter, with the plumbing cinched down to 1" for the final six inches - 1,350 gph.

 

[Reefer Frank]

So it turns out the colored pipe I am buying from BRS is schedule 40. I never noticed that. The other fittings are schedule 80 though.

I was going to do what you suggested, but, my tank is already in place on the main floor and I only drilled three 1" holes for the two drains and one return.

Reducing the last 3" and/or running the 1.5" up and over the back bypassing the Reefer return is not likely at this point. I'd have to drain the tank, drill new holes, and go through that whole process.

Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it!

You can buy colored sch 40..
You don't need to use the 3/4" return.. cap it off and do over the top return pipes..
Or you can reduce it to 3/4" if you want in the last 3" or whatever... No reason it must be 8'...

Not only did you buy a new pump you are also paying more in energy which adds up.. If thats not a concern to you then fine.. But you could have a far more energy efficient pump if your plumbing was better suited for the job..

 

[Reefer Frank]

I like all answers. I came here for advice as I figured some of you would have real-world experience. I used to discuss this sort of stuff with BRS, but, I don't think they have time for these chitchats anymore.

So you're using PEX? Never thought of that before. How are you going from PEX to PVC? I did a quick Google search and only see brass fittings.

I like your second idea. My Pan World was only running 1.9AMP if I remember correctly when using it for my tank and manifold. Perhaps I can use that for my manifold since that's 1" and the Pan World is the same. Then, I'll use my Suntail for my tank, go 1.5" as far as I can, and drop down to 3/4" towards the end, which would be my basement ceiling. The last 8' or so going up would be the 3/4" tubing. I am not sure if the Pan World drops in amperage though.

I wonder how much the Suntail would drop from 5.4AMP?

I do have two Sicce 5.0 that I could use for the manifold as well. I was using one of them for my skimmer previously, not sure how much it can handle. They are rated for 1,300GPH.

I think the first step would be to remove my manifold and replace it with a straight pipe at 1". That should give some answers. With that, I am removing four "rest areas", which are the biggest problem according to the manufacturer.

Thanks!

Run your specs through the RC head loss calculator and see what you get (Panworld 200 = Blueline HD70). With all the restrictions, I'm not surprised you only got 550 with that pump. I run a PW200, cannot speak to the suntail pump. The PW/Iwaki pumps generally do better than any others against pressure. Also, FWIW, the reason there is 'a lot more power' at the pump is that it's not pushing against any head pressure. So, either live with what you have, or replace the current pipes with something more sensible. Getting rid of the up-and-over was a good start, even if it didn't really contribute significantly to the actual flow, it avoids other problems. While you might not have 'liked' the answer, McG is right that Sch 80 is both unnecessary and actually limiting because of the ID constraints. My preferred approach these days is to use Flex PVC. It avoids tight bends (never heard the term 'rest areas' before) and flow-killing elbows. Manifolds kill flow as well; might want to consider a small dedicated manifold pump. Any plumbing steals flow - including valves and the Apex flow meters.

I test ran my PW200 through a 25' run of 1 1/2" flex PVC (12 of them vertical feet) and the 2" Apex flow meter, with the plumbing cinched down to 1" for the final six inches - 1,350 gph.

 

[mcgyvr]

Flex PVC is not PEX...
Google "Spa flex pvc hose"

And you wouldn't have to drain the tank or drill any holes to fix the issue.. Its a simple fix..
The return pipes are simply routed up and over the top of the aquarium with an "inverted" U..
and example..

 

[Reefer Frank]

Sorry, I thought you were suggesting I go 1.5" through the floor. That would require I drill a new hole.

Are you suggesting I go 1"?

That would work. I could cap the 3/4" built-in return, remove the 3/4" tubing. I could then run 1" pipe through the hole only having to reduce to 1" from the 1.5" in the basement. Then I could go all the way up and over the back of the tank with 1".

Did you paint your PVC pictured? If so, do you mind my asking what type of paint you used? They actually look really good. I don't know why I have this thing against the white pipe, but I do. :hmm2:

Thanks for the tips. I appreciate it. Glad I posted here, this has all been very helpful. :thumbsup:

Flex PVC is not PEX...
Google "Spa flex pvc hose"

And you wouldn't have to drain the tank or drill any holes to fix the issue.. Its a simple fix..
The return pipes are simply routed up and over the top of the aquarium with an "inverted" U..
and example..

 

[mcgyvr]

Thats not my picture.. Just one I found.. You can easily paint any PVC though with spray paint..

As suggested you should use the head loss calculator here..
http://www.reefcentral.com/index.php/head-loss-calculator
Plug in all the information and see what its going to take to achieve the flow you want.. That may involve enlarging the hole in the floor.. It may not..
I would highly suggest nothing involving 3/4" pipe anywhere..

Don't forget that your manifold/reactors are going to consume some of that flow too so you need extra..

 

[ca1ore]

Right, PEX is different from Flex PVC. I have bought both 1" and 1" 1/2" in the past. Google Flex PVC and you'll see a few online suppliers.

 

[Reefer Frank]

Sorry to bring up this old thread. Figured this might be useful should anyone else have issues with these Reefer series tanks from Red Sea.

The Red Sea tanks are very restrictive. While the return line is 3/4", it eventually reduces to 1/2" at the overflow.

I was always shooting for that 1,060GPH number Red Sea recommends for the Reefer 450. Anything more than 500GPH the flow becomes violent. Impossible to tune the drain to be silent, even at 550GPH. At 500GPH, it's dead silent. Plus, if you don't replace the return nozzle from the overflow, anything over 550GPH you'll have a wave going over the front of your tank.

I eventually went back to my Panworld 200PS. While it makes a lot more noise than the Suntail Gold from Reeflo, I'm down to a constant 2AMP from a constant 6AMP.

Thank you all for your prior help and advice.

 

[LQT]

I’ve observed the same issue. It seems that down from the smallest Reefer tank, the Nano, to their largest offering, the 750xxl, they seem to all have the exact same size overflow box, drain plumbing and return plumbing. Seems terribly limiting as you get to the larger models and kinda throws their flow recommendations out the window as you get into the larger tanks. These are the specs of the plumbing for all of the RedSea Reefers, regardless of tank volume from BRS.

Return Plumbing - 25mm
Main Drain - 32mm
Emergency Drain - 25mm