Questions about going fallow

[ThRoewer]

TTM is more effective than copper, plus you don't have to measure copper levels twice daily.

Copper has also ill effects on the fish's immune system - it's a known immunosuppressant - which may open the door for other infections.
Copper may also mask infections like ich and velvet without eradicating them - often if the level was not maintained properly, but there are also highly copper tolerant velvet strains - and those are not rare due to many wholesalers and LFS using low dose copper on their systems.
Copper is a rather crude "medication" out of the stone ages of this hobby - today we have gentler and more effective ways to cure fish of various illnesses.

As for hyposalinity - if done right it is highly effective (unless you have one of those rare Taiwan strains). So far it always worked for me.

If you have to treat a lot of large fish, adding hyposalinity to TTM not only increases the level of reliability but also helps to cut cost (less salt needed).
Another reason to add hyposalinity to TTM is that it reduces stress and energy consumption - something to consider when treating sick fish, or fish who are not eating or not eating well enough yet, but are in need of treatment.

 

[The Reef Addict]

TTM is more effective than copper, plus you don't have to measure copper levels twice daily.

Copper is a rather crude "medication" out of the stone ages of this hobby - today we have gentler and more effective ways to cure fish of various illnesses.

If you have to treat a lot of large fish, adding hyposalinity to TTM not only increases the level of reliability but also helps to cut cost (less salt needed).
Another reason to add hyposalinity to TTM is that it reduces stress and energy consumption - something to consider when treating sick fish, or fish who are not eating or not eating well enough yet, but are in need of treatment.

Honestly I've never been a huge fan of copper treatment, though I know it is proven. Are you saying to combine TTM and hypo at the same time, or separately?

I currently have all tank mates going through their first round of TTM, so far so good!

Again, thanks for all the guidance. :rollface:

 

[The Reef Addict]

If you are saying to combine the two, do I bring salinity down to 1.09, or just lower it in general?

I think the first time around I dropped the salinity (for hypo) too fast and stressed the fish, I would think TTM is the least stressful, even with the moving involved.. Having 2 of all the same everything makes it so their enviornment is essentially the same, which is what ive done.

 

[ThRoewer]

It would be TTM and hypo at the same time, doing first one and then the other makes not much sense.
Which salinity to go with depends on your intent:

A. for being extra sure that ich is gone 1.009 would be required

B. if it is just to help the fish save energy and to make osmoregulation for them easier I would go to somewhere between 1.016 to 1.0012.

As for dropping the salinity - I've dripped 3 regal angel from regular salinity to 1.009 in less than an hour and they all handled it well.

After treatment was done I ramped up slowly to 1.016 (about 0.001 per day). From there I dripped them to 1.020 within an hour and then just dropped them into the tank with 1.026 - no issues at all.

 

[The Reef Addict]

It would be TTM and hypo at the same time

As for dropping the salinity - I've dripped 3 regal angel from regular salinity to 1.009 in less than an hour and they all handled it well.

After treatment was done I ramped up slowly to 1.016 (about 0.001 per day). From there I dripped them to 1.020 within an hour and then just dropped them into the tank with 1.026 - no issues at all.

Thats intersting, even my clowns and watchman goby (who are bulletproof), looked like they were gasping for air. Would you think this is because I buffered the water before hand? I suppose it would be a lot easier to do hypo in a 10g than a 29...

If I did both at the same time, would it be necessary to continue hypo beyond the 14 day TTM period? This time around, I have time so I could.. But Im also wondering for future reference.

 

[ThRoewer]

After TTM is done you can ramp up the salinity to normal or only to 1.016 - 1.018 for the rest of the observation period.

 

[microlady]

I keep it around 1.020 or a bit less during quarantine. It saves on salt mix and assists the fish with osmoregulation.

 

[The Reef Addict]

Awesome! I will give that a shot, tomorrow will be the first swith (day 3) of TTM, I will drop salinity down a bit in the process.

I got another question, a bit off topic. Will freshwater (tap/ro) kill marine ich if something were left to soak in the water long enough? Im thinking about fish nets, heaters, etc. Ive heard drying for 24hours is enough, but I was pondering the thought of freshwater as well

 

[Deinonych]

I got another question, a bit off topic. Will freshwater (tap/ro) kill marine ich if something were left to soak in the water long enough? Im thinking about fish nets, heaters, etc. Ive heard drying for 24hours is enough, but I was pondering the thought of freshwater as well

I would not risk it. When I do TTM, I soak everything in a bleach solution for 24 hours, then air dry for at least 48 hours. I should also mention that I have three of everything, so I have a lot of wiggle room in terms of time.

 

[The Reef Addict]

I would not risk it. When I do TTM, I soak everything in a bleach solution for 24 hours, then air dry for at least 48 hours. I should also mention that I have three of everything, so I have a lot of wiggle room in terms of time.

I get what your saying lol. 3 of everything would help, but thats probably not an option for me right now.. I just set up my 2nd tank for the swap tomorrow morning, Yesterday I rinsed it out thoroughly with piping hot tap water, then dried it off completely and let sit for just about 24 hours, do you think that will suffice?

If not, should I scrub it down with Dawn Dish Soap/bleach, rinse thoroughly, and dry again? Thanks for all the help everyone

 

[ThRoewer]

For TTM I would go with 4 of everything. But I have only small fish so I get along with cheap pumps and small tanks.

If you have to sterilize your equipment during TTM, I would add heat to the cleaning. One hour in a bucket of 40°C hot water or above (over 60°C you may damage plastic parts of equipment) will leave all ich cysts dead that may have hidden in tight seams or cavities of pumps or heaters.

 

[The Reef Addict]

Right now I also have small fish in TTM, so Im using 2, 10g tanks.. Though it may be kinda crowded for 2 clowns, a watchman, a mandarin, and a neon goby. Luckily they will only be in a 10g till the last day of TTM, then they go in my 29g QT for the remainder of fallow period.

For tangs/angels, I may need to pickup another 20g long. I got too many tanks for such a small apartment! :lolspin:

As far as the cleansing part, I believe I killed off anything that would have remained.. Luckily my tap water is atleast 110°F, so I rinsed 10g thoroughly, let it try for a day.. Then refilled the next. Seemed to work well, but maybe I'll use a bleach solution with it next time as a guarantee. Definitely cant afford to have 3/4 of everything right now

 

[tastyfish]

Tastyfish, thanks for your input! Im pretty positive it was ich, not my first run in with it unfortunately. But im hoping to put an end to that.

I did end up removing all fish after enough research. All thats left are my inverts (including shrimps/lobster). I read of a few instances where people had luck with a mandarin in the DT during fallow period, but I decided not to chance it.. Luck isnt my thing lol.

After 10-12 weeks of being fallow, wouldnt ich and other cysts perish from being a carrier on say, a shrimp? Ive yet to have any experiences with cysts/bacterial infections, so forgive me if what I said sounds stupid.

Is TTM just as effective as copper? From what Ive read, if done correctly it is.. Maybe I should do TTM and copper? I will certainly have time!

Thanks!!

No problem, I know how you feel. I've had dinoflagellates and WhiteSpot, straight after each other... The only good thing is I've been spending my money on SPS whilst the tank is fallow rather than fish...

I got another question, a bit off topic. Will freshwater (tap/ro) kill marine ich if something were left to soak in the water long enough? Im thinking about fish nets, heaters, etc. Ive heard drying for 24hours is enough, but I was pondering the thought of freshwater as well

I would not risk it. When I do TTM, I soak everything in a bleach solution for 24 hours, then air dry for at least 48 hours. I should also mention that I have three of everything, so I have a lot of wiggle room in terms of time.

No, RO/freshwater will kill free-swimming parasites, however when encysted, the tomites very resilient. From the research papers I've read on it (and speaking to marine biology researchers) the two best methods are either heat (above 35C, so 40C to make sure) or chlorine (bleach).

Right now I also have small fish in TTM, so Im using 2, 10g tanks.. Though it may be kinda crowded for 2 clowns, a watchman, a mandarin, and a neon goby. Luckily they will only be in a 10g till the last day of TTM, then they go in my 29g QT for the remainder of fallow period.

For tangs/angels, I may need to pickup another 20g long. I got too many tanks for such a small apartment! :lolspin:

As far as the cleansing part, I believe I killed off anything that would have remained.. Luckily my tap water is atleast 110°F, so I rinsed 10g thoroughly, let it try for a day.. Then refilled the next. Seemed to work well, but maybe I'll use a bleach solution with it next time as a guarantee. Definitely cant afford to have 3/4 of everything right now

How is everything going? I must admit, I'm pretty doubtful of TTM as an effective method as nature just isn't so predictable that all the parasites drop off or emerge at the same time.

Chloroquine seems to be an increasingly popular treatment and seems to be relatively fire and forget in a hospital tank compared to copper.

 

[Deinonych]

No, RO/freshwater will kill free-swimming parasites, however when encysted, the tomites very resilient. From the research papers I've read on it (and speaking to marine biology researchers) the two best methods are either heat (above 35C, so 40C to make sure) or chlorine (bleach).

Dessication is extremely effective, provided it is thorough. Bleach is easier, though.

How is everything going? I must admit, I'm pretty doubtful of TTM as an effective method as nature just isn't so predictable that all the parasites drop off or emerge at the same time.

TTM is about as close to 100% effective as you can get, as it targets the most predictable phase of the life cycle - tomont formation. Trophonts feed for 3-7 days, max. By the third transfer, there should be no more theronts to reinfect the fish (no tomonts remain, as that stage either never formed, or was destroyed during disinfection).

Chloroquine seems to be an increasingly popular treatment and seems to be relatively fire and forget in a hospital tank compared to copper.

Chloroquine needs to be administered in a carefully-controlled manner. It is photosensitive, so strong light should be avoided. And, there are no OTC test kits, so there is always some level of guesswork involved in maintaining therapeutic dosage. There are also theories that it can be broken down by some of the bacteria that inhabit our biofilters, so it must be administered in a completely sterile tank. Personally, CP has been hit-or-miss for me when treating ich. I find TTM much more straightforward and effective.