Raccoon Butterfly, help!

[bcismmajor]

I have a raccoon butterfly that just mysteriously made a turn for the worse overnight. I have had it for a few days and haven't noticed any problems, it was swimming around and eating just fine. It had been at the local fish shop for 2 weeks prior to me buying it. It has some mysterious red spots on its body just above its ventral fin (see picture in attached pdf file). I have moved it over to a separate hospital tank now. Its not swimming around and is just lying up again things.

My main tank details are 72 gallon, 85lbs Fiji rock, 45lbs live sand, 2 percula clowns, 1 coral beauty angel, 1 cleaner shrimp, 1 coral banded shrimp and several dwarf hermit crabs. Water parameters are Ammonia, Nitrate, and Nitrate are all 0 or very close, PH was 8.1, SG 1.024. Any ideas???

 

[leebca]

The red striations are usually indicative of a systemic condition. It can be a condition known as Septicemia. This is usually brought on by poor water quality, including but not necessarily limited to: ammonia, nitrites, high organic and thus high bacterial content, poor handling to where it got an internal infection. "Near zero" numbers are not acceptable to some fishes, like the Butterflyfishes. Your tank, properly aged for Butterflyfishes, should ALWAYS show a 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite.

From what I can see, it hasn't got long to live. This is a relatively progressed case. But don't despair, you might have to be a very experienced aquarist to have noticed its earliest stages.

Kanamycin baths, Kanacyn, Furan, and Maracyn II for Saltwater fish have been used to treat this condition.

My approach:
1) Good that the fish is already in quarantine;
2) Add Maracyn II for Saltwater fish to the QT at TWICE the first-day recommended dosage.
3) Follow dosages for the following two days (day 2 and day 3) but double what is recommended by the manufacturer.
4) The last two days, reduce the dosage to that recommended by the manufacturer.

During all this: Watch water conditions closely; pray; don't put any butterflyfish, tangs, or angelfishes in your tank until it always reads 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite. Make water changes in the hospital tank to keep ammonia readings at 0 and nitrite readings below 0.1 ppm.

You'd better move quickly! :rollface:

Good luck!

 

[bcismmajor]

leebca,

Thank you for your responce. I wasn't as clear in my orginal post as I could of been, the ammonia and Nitrite are both 0, the Nitrate reading was the one close to 0.

I also have received another reply to my problem on another site and the person there thought my angel my have got in to a scuffle with it, as i did notice the angel chasing it when I first introduced it to my main tank and it invaded the angels preferred spot in the tank. But since that first little incident it seemed like they had gotten a long just fine and where swiming togeather. They recommended treating with Melafix to treat for bacterial infection of the wounds it my have received, which I have started. Should i continue with that medication or switch over to the Maracyn?

Thanks for your reply again!

 

[Billybeau1]

When I first read your thread, I thought it might have been a fight. When I first got my butterfly he had a disagreement with the locals. He had a couple of red spots on his side.

My nitrates are about 60 ppm. So I dont think its water quality.

As long as your quarantine tank is in good shape, let him get strong again then once he is eating and strong, try and introduce him again to the main tank and watch carefully. Maybe rearrange the tank a little to give everyone else something to think about.

BTW - many people think melafix is junk. I personally think its not so bad. If you got it, use it.

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7046480#post7046480 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by leebca
The red striations are usually indicative of a systemic condition. It can be a condition known as Septicemia. This is usually brought on by poor water quality, including but not necessarily limited to: ammonia, nitrites, high organic and thus high bacterial content, poor handling to where it got an internal infection. "Near zero" numbers are not acceptable to some fishes, like the Butterflyfishes. Your tank, properly aged for Butterflyfishes, should ALWAYS show a 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite.

From what I can see, it hasn't got long to live. This is a relatively progressed case. But don't despair, you might have to be a very experienced aquarist to have noticed its earliest stages.

Kanamycin baths, Kanacyn, Furan, and Maracyn II for Saltwater fish have been used to treat this condition.

My approach:
1) Good that the fish is already in quarantine;
2) Add Maracyn II for Saltwater fish to the QT at TWICE the first-day recommended dosage.
3) Follow dosages for the following two days (day 2 and day 3) but double what is recommended by the manufacturer.
4) The last two days, reduce the dosage to that recommended by the manufacturer.

During all this: Watch water conditions closely; pray; don't put any butterflyfish, tangs, or angelfishes in your tank until it always reads 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite. Make water changes in the hospital tank to keep ammonia readings at 0 and nitrite readings below 0.1 ppm.

You'd better move quickly! :rollface:

Good luck!

I would follow this advice and I would act quickly!! Melafix won't help!!

 

[leebca]

bcismmajor,

I stand by my original post. Your fish likely has Septicemia. I don't care how it might have gotten it, but it has it. Maybe you should do your own research and come to your own diagnosis.

Melafix and Pimafix are natural liquids of plant origin. They do little. Nothing has been shown that they work. You should also search RC for other's opinions. But if you don't search, at least read this short thread which has other references in it:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=798781

Your fish has an internal infection. Treating the water with a chemical which, at best, is a bacterial 'antagonistic' material won't help the inside infection of the fish.

I understand your doubts. How could a fish get like this from the inside? The people advising you just don't have the experience. I've seen this condition many times. I've done my own experiments with Melafix and Pimafix on the very condition your fish has. It doesn't work. You want to save your fish? My way is the optimal path to the fish's best recovery.

I also suggest you look into food and nutrition. Your fish, if it was eating the right foods wouldn't likely be susceptible to this kind of internal infection. Check this out:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=785228

I can only share with you my experience and knowledge. If you're in doubt, research it more yourself.

 

[bcismmajor]

Thanks for the links. I'll be sure to read up on them ASAP. I'm sorry if I came off as questioning your expierence...I'm still really new to this (about a year) and this is my first expierence with a disease and I just feel so overwhlemed with all the information I have been seeing.

Thanks again so much for your help!

 

[TerryB]

I agree with what Lee said for the most part. However, judging by the shape of the wounds I am guessing that it started from some sort of injury. I am not convinced that the infection is yet systemic. I can see red in the photo but it doesn't look like the typical red streaks often associated with septicemia. This species of butterfly also seems to have problems with uronema that looks like bloody patches with raised scales.

Netting causes a lot of injuries so it is better to use clear plastic bags or specimen containers to catch fish. My first guess is that the fish has been wounded, probably not from aggression. The wounds may be infected with bacteria. The shape of the wounds do not look like uronema. Personally, I would treat the fish with nitrofurazone in quarantine, reduce the salinity and add a polymer such as Stressguard or Pro Tech Coat Marine. Nitrofurazone is a good antibiotic and it also has some antiparasitic action against uronema.

Part of the problem with recently captured or transported fish is that it can take a long time for them to recover full function of their immune response. This means that they can get sick weeks after a stressful event, especially with bacteria that take advantage of a stress-weakened host. As Leebca suggested, donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t bother with the Melafix. Treat the fish in quarantine with an good antibiotic. I favor nitrofurazone in this instance. Do NOT remove the fish from water if you are going to move it.

Terry B

 

[Billybeau1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7047979#post7047979 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by leebca
The people advising you just don't have the experience. I've seen this condition many times. I've done my own experiments with Melafix and Pimafix on the very condition your fish has. It doesn't work. You want to save your fish? My way is the optimal path to the fish's best recovery.

Wow Lee, that was quite a hit you took on me. Maybe because I'm not an "EXPERT", maybe I should stay out of this forum. You seem to have all the answers.

What I saw in his picture was what I saw on my Raccoon, after he got in a fight with my trigger, which I witnessed. Maybe it's not the same thing or as TerryB said it could be something else that is common in butterfly fish. I'm not sure you can make a specific diagnosis by just seeing a picture. Boy if you can, you must be really, really an expert.

I tried to lend a helping hand to someone who had a problem that I've experienced. I can assure you I don't give advice unless I've seen it first hand.

I can tell you this. When my raccoon looked like that, after the fight, I quarantined, Melafix for 10 days and then Stresscoat for a week and all those red spots disappeared. He is now back in the main tank and is looking great.

Now I cant tell you what my fish had or how it disappeared but I now have a healthy fish and that's what I did.

I'm sure you and TerryB are very experienced at fish disease as I have witnessed since becoming an RC member. I just recognized a symptom and gave advice. SORRY

 

[leebca]

Nothing I wrote had any consideration to what you posted in this thread Billybeau1. This part:

The people advising you just don't have the experience.

was referring to what bcismmajor wrote:

They recommended treating with Melafix to treat for bacterial infection of the wounds it my have received, which I have started.

So, unless you were the 'They' in "They recommended. . ." then what I wrote was not a hit on you. If it was you who are the "They," I had no idea, right? I still think Melafix is not good advice for a marine fish with a bacterial infection. It hasn't been shown to be effective except by unverified testimonials.

As for my original opinon on the post and photo I specifically wrote:

The red striations are usually indicative of a systemic condition. It can be a condition known as Septicemia.

You'll note my choice of wording is not a sure diagnosis. It is a guess from what little evidence was presented, keeping in mind that bcismmajor didn't specify the fish had tankmate problems or that the actual water quality wasn't 'close to zero' but actually zero. It's hard enough to help those who post when you're given a part of the picture. That is why I hedge my opinion as I originally wrote it.

I'm sorry that my post came across as it did. I have never felt superior to anyone in my life (to the best of my knowledge). However, I will freely admit to being tired of hearing LFSs giving advice to use the 'secondary' 'medications.' Melafix and Pimafix are both very effective in freshwater fish infections, IMHO.

I believe your experience and input in this Forum is positive. Keep up the input!

 

[Billybeau1]

Thanks Lee. Rereading my post this morning, I guess I didnt read your post correctly. Had a bad day yesterday.

Being a member of RC for awhile, I can certainly see how people like you and TerryB among others, provide our members with very valuable experience. I understand how difficult it is to diagnose some of these problems over the internet.

I just hope the starter of this thread gets is fish well. They are beautiful fish.

Thanks for all the time you contribute to RC.