RDSB for ~400g water. Help please.

I dont recall what resolution I can test for Phosphate and Nitrate but Im sure its adequate, I have labbies and ICP to worry about that...How long do you think a RDSB would function if it is getting clogged up with detritus? Not looking to clean out the RDSB every couple of months, this would defy the purpose as you would be taking it down before it got establishe correctly. Would not the dissolved phosphate deliver plenty of Po4 to the RDSB and just not worry about it. With the high flow in rdsb it can still behave as a sink without the clogging with detritus. Do you thinbk the ph in a rdsb is appropriate for formation of calcium phosphate? I doubt it. It is very likely that if u operate a RDSB as u suggest it would be and H2S mess in a short time......
 
i would check then. if it is not able to read with 0.001ppm resolution, than it is not adequate. the last time i checked. the Salifert phosphate kit can only read with 0.01ppm resolution. which is not going to be adequate.

how long it takes for a DSB/RDSB to "fill" up depends on a lot of factors. i talked about it a little earlier in this thread, but we can go over it again if need be. the speed of the flow over the RDSB is double edged sword. the enemy here is the detritus, critter poo, and bacterial flock. low flow allows detritus to settle. the question is, where do you want it to settle for easy removal. if the RDSB is the best place someone has for collecting detritus not in the display, then i suggest a slower flow and manual removal of detritus once a week during water changes. if there is a sump or conical settling tank that collects the detritus, then keeping good flow over the RDSB would be preferred. the detritus is the enemy.

as for PO4 in the water column. how does it get there in the first place? if all we put in the tank is organic phosphates in the form of food, then how do we get inorganic phosphates in the water column?

confused on the formation of calcium carbonate comment. people still believe that the substrate acts as a buffer for Ca and alk? :( i thought this was disproven many years ago. it is when the pH becomes low enough to cause the dissolution of calcium carbonate in the substrate that H2S is allowed to start forming under these dissolved areas that then coagulate when pH rises above the dissolution pH. what happens when a calcium carbonate that is loaded with phosphates dissolves? where does the phosphates go? the same goes with a calcium reactor. they add phosphates to the system. why would the use of muriatic acid to "remove" phosphates from LR not also release phosphates in a calcium reactor? what is the difference? calcium carbonate is a phosphate binder. it wants phosphates. dissolving phosphates just releases any bound phosphates back into solution along with the calcium carbonate.

the point of any calcium carbonate in a system (besides the skeletons formed by hermatypic organisms) is to bind phosphates. we need to treat those calcium carbonate media that is not self cleaning (substrates, LR is able to self clean because of flow flow all around it to remove detritus), as the filter it is. it is only able to bind so much inorganic PO4 by itself, and the critters that are involved in the substrate are only able to bind so much inorganic PO4 also. at some point the amount of critters and detritus reaches a tipping point and the entire substrate (critters and calcium carbonate) can not take anymore and the phosphate are no longer able to slowly migrate downward through it.

the good news is that refreshing a substrate is easy. it only takes a good stirring and rinsing (preferably with SW if the media wants to be reused). this is very easy on a RDSB. just get all of the detritus out of the entity on a regular basis. this could take years, or just doing it a couple of times a year is sufficient. if you feel that it needs to happen "just like nature", then think of it as a tropical storm or any large storm that goes through the tropics. it stirs up the substrates. allows accumulated detritus to get washed out tot the abyss, and allows the layers of calcium carbonate to start the migration of phosphates back down through it again before getting clogged by detritus.

back to the comment earlier about the formation of any of the nitrogenous compounds by bacteria. it is like saying all you need to do to create O2 from CO2 is add a plant. taken at its simplest level, this is correct, but you also need to include all of the resources needed to support the plant to actually get the O2. you need the sunlight for energy, you need the phosphates and nitrates for the formation of the plant itself. the same thing goes for bacteria. the bacteria also need resources in order to live. it is these resources that must also be considered when trying to figure out what is going on in our systems. it is super easy to just ignore phosphates, this has been especially true when the levels actually needed to limiting to algae growth are so low.

G~
 
H2s formation in the rdsb is going to be caused by anaerobic decomposition of organic matter. Conditions that will cause this environment is low flow and detritus. It is a recipe for disaster. Advice should be given cautiously. I dont know what the phosphorus cycle in the aquarium is, perhaps you can explain it to me. I agree you need phosphate,(as do the corals) ths is why im not bent on stripping it all out, its likely impossible. If no one has the resolution to test phosphate low enough than it is a parameter that we can not control and would be come limiting at times and this whole thread crashes.
 
the amount of inorganic phosphates in the water column is determined by the organisms you would like to keep in the system. hermatypic (calcium depositing) organisms require extremely low inorganic phosphates. fish only systems, and softy tanks can get away with high phosphate levels, and in some cases require them. it all depends on how the organisms need to acquire phosphates. lets say advanced animals get phosphates through direct ingestion. plants get it through dissolved inorganic phosphates. SPS corals (hermatypic) as we all know have developed a symbiotic relationship with algae. the algae need the wastes from the coral (inorganic phosphates because the water does not supply enough) and the corals get oxygen and other nutrients from the zoax. the formation of the coral skeleton is actually a byproduct of photosynthesis. if the phosphate levels in the water column get to high, then the coral is no longer calling the shots. they start to turn brown, then bleach because of O2 poisoning if conditions get to bad. the phosphates can also gum up the photosynthesis engine binding with the Ca ions.

calcification.jpg


softies rely on the inorganic phosphates in the water column to help support their zoax. they have evolved to live in areas that have enough phosphates to support algae. their competitive advantage is not living in a nutrient poor environment like the hermatypic corals.

the formation of H2S is caused by the substrate gumming up with detritus causing higher levels of CO2 within the substrate locally clogging things up even more. creating solid areas which then block O2 from getting below them, creating an anoxic area. the point is you are going to have detritus in any system. it is what do you do with it, that is important. it has to be removed. inorganic nutrients come from the breakdown of this detritus. you remove the detritus you remove the source of the nutrients. it then becomes a question of how much poo do you want to keep around as a pet in order to support algae, other organisms, and even the substrate bacteria.

we do have a way to test for phosphates to that level, it is called algae. if it is growing, then phosphates are not limiting and above 0.009ppm. :) we are getting closer and closer to getting test kits precise enough. we have just been told the wrong way to use algae. :( use it as a biomarker, not as a export media.

i will hunt down a good water borne phosphates graphic from my home forum from another member that shows very well where and how phosphates travel in our systems.

G~
 
Welcome to RC!!

the reason why deeper is better has to do with the amount of phosphates that can be bound in it. just a quick look at your link points to Paul B. i have a quite a few discussions with him going right now on various forums. he is on the right track, but not quite there for what is going on. he likes to ignore the entire phosphate aspect of what is going on in our systems. this unfortunately is also what the "sand experts" in the past also wanted to glass over or ignore.

here are the graphics that user posted on another forum. here is the thread in its entirety for those interested.

this is the straight up graphic.

phosphate_graphic_basic.png


here is the graphic with circles showing what methods remove what phosphates.

phosphate_graphic_circles.png


here it is again with the algae phosphate export method shown.

phosphate_graphic_4_square.png


hopefully that help makes a bit more sense to what is going on in our systems with regard to phosphates, and why they are important. i have to give a bit shout out to FutureDoc for finding and creating a clear graphic for explaining the different export methods and what they go after.

G~
 
it is all about what is limiting. the phosphate level in an oligotrophic environment are at 0.1micromolar, or about 0.009ppm. can your phosphates test read that. ;) i bet it reads 0. :D if your test kit were to read 0 phosphates, and your nitrate test kit read 10, which nutrient would you blame? for comparison the oligotrophic environment level for nitrate is 0.9ppm. does your nitrate kit read to that resolution?

G~

looking through my reference i found this chart showing a comparison of what levels are on wild reefs. it looks like the conversion from micromolar to ppm for phosphates was correct. reefs being at 0.005ppm and algae limiting at 0.009ppm makes sense. the levels we should hope for are there because at the time of the writing, this was as accurate as we could get. again just because our test are not accurate enough does not mean that those are the levels we should be shooting for. :(

G~
 
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looking through my reference i found this chart showing a comparison of what levels are on wild reefs. it looks like the conversion from micromolar to ppm for phosphates was correct. reefs being at 0.005ppm and algae limiting at 0.009ppm makes sense. the levels we should hope for are there because at the time of the writing, this was as accurate as we could get. again just because our test are not accurate enough does not mean that those are the levels we should be shooting for. :(

G~

As a baseline my PO4 is 16.108PPM right now......

EXPLETIVE!
 
is that total phosphates or only inorganic phosphates. what was the measuring device? how long between collection of the sample and the actual test?

G~
 
is that total phosphates or only inorganic phosphates. what was the measuring device? how long between collection of the sample and the actual test?

G~
 
Inorganic Phosphates only I think, as it was close to my hanna after conversion (I have asked though). Was about 30 minutes between sample and test.
For the equipment... not to sure. He works in a drug research and testing lab though. So I have no doubt that the equipment costs more than a nice house. I know he uses a 'Finnigan MAT-271 quantitative gas mass spectrometer' As I dealt with the power needs for it when they moved it to a new room in the lab.
 
like pH if the test is done to long after the sample was collected the inorganic phosphate levels can go up. i would not think that 30min would have changed the values that much.

G~
 
like pH if the test is done to long after the sample was collected the inorganic phosphate levels can go up. i would not think that 30min would have changed the values that much.

G~
 
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