Re-thinking phosphate control

[thebanker]

In my system, phosphates are my biggest issue. For filtration I'm using biopellets, a skimmer, gfo, activated carbon, and a macro algae & miracle mud refugium.

Nitrates generally register zero on a salifert test. My phosphates are often .09 to .12 at their highest. I pay my LFS to run it through a Hanna colorimeter.

I'm using GFO to control phosphates, trying to use small amounts, and replace it regularly. Right now I'm using ROWA, and it seems to do a good job. I'd previously used Ecophos, and that worked well too.

But there are alternatives. I'm just not sure which direction to take, or what will be the most cost effective. One important note, I'm running an SPS friendly aquarium, so aluminum based resins are out of the question.

The way I see it, we all have a few options.

• Bigger skimmer - this will be tough for me until I finally cave and get a sump, but it is a valid and cost effective option for a lot of reefers
• GFO - The tried and true PO4 controller. In my experience, it seems to be expensive.
• Biopellets - I'm running these, and they really do work. Just remember that the bacteria they culture can only reduce phosphate by creating more cells, and they seem to be nitrate limited in my system, as well as some other hobbyists.
• Dose potassium nitrate - This only applies if you are already using biopellets. In theory, you are providing bioavailable nitrogen to bacteria who need C:N in a specific ratio. And specific is the key word, because the ratio will vary between bacterial species.
• Upgrade refugium - I started running it 24/7 again, and thinking about swapping the 16W T8 for a 24w T5. There is debate over whether or not 24/7 light is better or worse than a day/night cycle when your objective is nutrient reduction.
• More water changes - Let's face it this is often the best idea, but it is a pain.
• New age GFO - PO4x4 claims to adsorb 4x more PO4. Boyd Chemi-Pure Elite is supposedly all that and a bag of chips. Then there is Purigen. Does it do anything for PO4 or PO4 precursors?

I'm sure there are other options I haven't listed. So much has changed in the past 3 years, what are you doing to control phosphates? If you have a good system, talk about it. Post a tank pic, or a sump pic if you feel like it.

 

[dzhuo]

Do you have any guess why phosphate is so high? Addressing that might be worth exploring.

 

[thebanker]

Probably overfeeding, plus I don't do a lot of water changes. My bioload is high, and they get hungry. I also supplement amino acids, since they really seem to help with coral growth. I could cut back on all that, but thats no fun.

 

[chuckdallas]

"thebanker," I have a similar problem. The wife LOVES Dendros, but since they are $25/head where I'm from, she opted for Sun Polyps. She wanted to buy the black/green ones, the orange ones and the yellow ones. Lucky me. Sun Polyps...I just read I can "train" them to come out during the day but as of the last 3-4 months, they only come out at night after the lights are out, so she never gets to see them anymore. Since I spend an hour a night feeding them and not talking to her, she's not in love with them anymore. I used to use ground up mysis but that made the phos go from 0.03 to 0.09-0.12 almost consistently. I have 2 pieces of acro that were given to me, so I'm doing my best to keep those alive and the phos below 0.03. I have a solid media reactor with GFO in bags inside, as well as Warner Marine ECO-bak pellets. I skim but the skimmate is almost all water these last few weeks and I don't know why it's changed from dark brown sludge to light brown water lately. I have carbon in bags in the sump and I have a fuge with chaeto.

I agree that water changes are the best way to control the phos, but man, it's a pain, since I go to the LFS to get Natural Sea Water. I'm trying to cut back on the feedings. I used to use mysis all the time, but bought about 5 different varieties of food, including dried Zooplan, dried Phytoplan, dried cyclopeeze, frozen cyclopeeze (like a popsickle), Dr. G's Oyster Magnifique, Reef Nutrition's Rotifeast, Phytofeast and Arctifeast. I pick 2-3 each night/every other night and mix with about a cup of water from the aquarium and spot feed. I used to see the phos spike to 0.13 after the mysis cocktail, but since I've used the other stuff and not mysis, the phos has not spiked above 0.06, using my Hanna 736 Colorimeter. I'm still experimenting and trying everything I can to keep the phos down.

The wife even asked about the constant water changes and I told her I could purchase a new, better skimmer, but that idea didn't go over too well, since she knows the price of the equipment I've purchased. Let's see....$300-$500 for me and my skimmer or 3-10 pairs of shoes for her. Hmmm. Who is going to win that one?

Anyone else got any better ideas? After typing up and re-reading this email, I'm thinking I need to get rid of (sell/trade) the Sun Polyps. That makes the most sense at this point.

 

[pscott99]

Skimmerless sumpless. Have ATS. Using rowa phos in my canister filter for 2 weeks. Just got my hanna phosphate tester. First test out of the box .09
I have the usual dust algae on the glass clean twice a week. Bubble algae.
I will be looking to trend down but I am pretty surprised to see .09 which I consider quite low. What makes you think you have such a problem ? Do you have major algae issues. Your summary of solutions certainly covers what I have read so far. I'm not sure if I really have a problem yet. :worried:

 

[dzhuo]

Probably overfeeding, plus I don't do a lot of water changes. My bioload is high, and they get hungry. I also supplement amino acids, since they really seem to help with coral growth. I could cut back on all that, but thats no fun.

It seems counter productive if you know your system is unable to handle the excess nutrient and yet you are only looking for a post-active counter mechanism. Why isn't lessen the bio-load / feeding an option?

GFO - The tried and true PO4 controller. In my experience, it seems to be expensive.

I think GFO is probably the most efficient phosphate absorbent. You do know GFO can be re-generated right? This might help to keep cost down (but with a little more work).

 

[davocean]

The one thing I see on your tank that I didn't like in my own personal experience was the use of Miracle mud.
When I went that route for pods, my tank that had been running 5 years, total auto pilot mode, suddenly had a film algae problem that I just could not tolerate.
What went from using a mag float every other week suddenly became daily cleaning, and greener water.
I took out the mud and a couple weeks later all was well again, that was just my experience.

 

[thebanker]

She wanted to buy the black/green ones, the orange ones and the yellow ones. Lucky me.

...

Let's see....$300-$500 for me and my skimmer or 3-10 pairs of shoes for her. Hmmm. Who is going to win that one?

Anyone else got any better ideas? After typing up and re-reading this email, I'm thinking I need to get rid of (sell/trade) the Sun Polyps. That makes the most sense at this point.

This is a very common situation, and I owned a blueberry gorgonian for the same reason. What can you do!

I would trade in the sun polyps, and get some photosynthetic coral. You could try to trade in the wife, but the LFS might not give you credit for her, so... maybe coral is better. :lol: jk.

Skimmerless sumpless. Have ATS. Using rowa phos in my canister filter for 2 weeks. Just got my hanna phosphate tester. First test out of the box .09
I have the usual dust algae on the glass clean twice a week. Bubble algae.
I will be looking to trend down but I am pretty surprised to see .09 which I consider quite low. What makes you think you have such a problem ? Do you have major algae issues. Your summary of solutions certainly covers what I have read so far. I'm not sure if I really have a problem yet. :worried:

Skimmerless is a very tough road. A lot of guys do it, but it definitely creates a headwind for you. ATS plus skimmer is okay.

It seems counter productive if you know your system is unable to handle the excess nutrient and yet you are only looking for a post-active counter mechanism. Why isn't lessen the bio-load / feeding an option?

Reducing feeding is an option, but reducing bio load really isn't. I have a lot of fish, but I really like them all and have no desire to get rid of any. They all have enough room.

I think GFO is probably the most efficient phosphate absorbent. You do know GFO can be re-generated right? This might help to keep cost down (but with a little more work).

Yes, but GFO is a pain to regenerate. A lot of soaking, and rinsing, rinsing, rinsing. But yes I've considered it.

The one thing I see on your tank that I didn't like in my own personal experience was the use of Miracle mud.
When I went that route for pods, my tank that had been running 5 years, total auto pilot mode, suddenly had a film algae problem that I just could not tolerate.
What went from using a mag float every other week suddenly became daily cleaning, and greener water.
I took out the mud and a couple weeks later all was well again, that was just my experience.

I've been wondering about that. I've been thinking about siphoning out maybe 50% of it at a time. I don't want to do anything too drastic, since I've had the mudbed in there for the past year or so. The main benefits I see to miracle mud are DSB simulation through the mudbed (which is theoretical at best) and iron leaching, which has made macro go nuts in my fuge, as well as some interesting stuff happening in the DT, like halimeda and neomeris sp. sexually reproducing. I also have a small area of caulerpa serrulata, which I prune regularly to keep it in check.

What would you do? Pull out half the mud? Pull out all of it? Replace with sand? or leave BB? What could be the potential negatives?

 

[sanchoy]

-lower bioload get rid of some fishes
-reaquascape for dead spots/ perfect time to catch fish
-more water changes
-dose vodka/vinegar.. cheaper then gfo
-feed less

 

[fcmatt]

don't feed anything for a week and see what happens in my opinion. everything will be just
fine health wise. put in new gfo right before you do the no feeding thing. i am curious if your phos drop
pretty darn close to undetectable.

just a thought

 

[dzhuo]

Reducing feeding is an option, but reducing bio load really isn't. I have a lot of fish, but I really like them all and have no desire to get rid of any. They all have enough room.

I would start reducing the feeding to see where it will take you. I don't believe your various other algae or bacteria approaches would do much given your current N & P. They aren't super efficient (at dealing with P) and would be limited by Redfield ratio unless you can significantly increase their population and surface area. Generally speaking, you are pushing the biological limit of your tank and aren't willing to do more (chemically, water change, etc) to address the problem. Since you are keeping SPS, I can't imagine they would be very happy with the high phosphate. You are making the choice to keep the fish happy despite letting the SPS suffer.

Is moving the fish to another tank an option?

 

[davocean]

I know in my case I just pulled all mud, but mine was short time running, so not like any kind of shock to system.
If yours is a HO fuge I would think you may be able to do the same.
I normally would pull out over time as you mentioned, just not sure about possibly stirring up bad stuff that has been on the bottom long term, so hard to say.
My fuge has no sand, just rubble and chaeto, and too scared to deal w/ caulerpa going sexual to risk using that.
I think the mud intro's phos or nutrients that help plant life, and reason why yours is going nuts, but sometimes it may help the wrong plant life such as nuissance algaes.
I just don't see how they can regulate what goes in or comes out of the mud on a large production scale to maintain consistent results, and could be a different outcome from one tank to another.

 

[thebanker]

I'm really not going to remove any fish. Yes, I'm pushing the biological limits of my system, but I do think a feeding reduction is really the best option, and maybe more GFO. I could try regenerating it for economic savings. The SPS are fairly happy, and growing quite well. (no complaints, just trying to improve colors now).

I started running my fuge light 24/7 to see if that improves anything. So far so good.

To be clear, I didn't really need to figure out the solution, because I know what solutions are available to me. I'm just trying to start a discussion around alternative methods of PO4 control, and to see if anyone has a good anecdote about them.

 

[javajaws]

It doesn't really matter how much phophate you are introducing into the tank. What really matters is that you are removing as much as you are adding so it doesn't accumulate. I'm a big fan of "up and out"....lots of flow and skimmer/filter socks to remove as much particulate matter as possible before it breaks down.

 

[thebanker]

Reason # 265 for me to build a sump: interchangeable filter socks are awesome.

 

[sassyfrassy]

what fish do you have & what size are they? I'm interested b/c I have a 65g and trying to figure out how many fish I can have. I like fish too.

 

[thebanker]

7 Chromis viridis
2 oscellaris clowns
2 scooter blennies (dragonets)
1 blue damsel
1 royal gramma
1 aiptasia eating filefish

Keep in mind that the 7 chromis are relatively small fish, but still they add to the bio load.

 

[davocean]

It doesn't really matter how much phophate you are introducing into the tank. What really matters is that you are removing as much as you are adding so it doesn't accumulate. I'm a big fan of "up and out"....lots of flow and skimmer/filter socks to remove as much particulate matter as possible before it breaks down.

Well, I am a fan of filter socks and flow, but a great number of reefers try their best not to intro phosphates and such to begin with, that's why so many of us buy foods or additives that will say no phos or low phos.
Many even rinse their foods in RO/DI in an effort to not intro in the first place.
Many I know do this and have very sophisticated filtration systems.

 

[davocean]

Reason # 265 for me to build a sump: interchangeable filter socks are awesome.

Yes, you'd be real happy having a sump and definitely would benefit from that, and socks are pretty neato.
FWIW I don't think your fish stock/bioload is at all excessive.

 

[thebanker]

I've never seen any foods marked "low phosphate". Also I forgot about lanthanum chloride dosing as a PO4 control method.