Recirculating skimmer - DIY Bubble King Turbulence Plate??

[Roland Jacques]

Hahnmeister
Are you saying that the NW bubble pump discharge pointed down give you more dwell time? Less turbulence were you donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t want it yes, more dwell, NO WAY.

Pointing it down in the same vicinity as the skimmer discharge allows shorter dwell because a good 20% (really more) of the water is taking a shortcuts or just shorter cuts to that outlet. I say this give you much less dwell time than the diffuser with the directional sleeve.

The diffuser with the directional sleeve gives you more dwell time.
1. By directing the pump discharge into the lowest part of the skimmer (the diffuser reactor).
2. Then directing it up toward the neck through this inner directional sleeve (going 1/2 to 2/3s up the center of the skimmer, dispersing right were you want it.)

Your bubble/water canââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t take shortcuts this way. This = longer dwell time (shortcuts down to the skimmer outlet not possible)

This can be easily tested with food color. Youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll find that the directional sleeve skimmer will stay colored much longer than the same skimmer without it.

If you're concerned about back pressure for your ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œpump tricksââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ that dose not need to be an issue. Forget about the little holes for a moment, picture the diffuser chamber with just 1 big hole in the center, say 1 1/4", next to no back pressure. The chamber is 6 inches in diameter 2" tall. Now their is no backpressure (almost) to mess with the ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œpump tricksââ"šÂ¬Ã‚??

(Not knowing what the tricks are, im just guessing. tell me your pump tricks & ill tell you mine. I no, it a sickness)

Tall skimmers are great but im just currently just fascinated with how efficient a short skimmer came be. Ive been designing one that amazes me because it is so short. Tall skimmers are to easy short compact skimmers is where the challenge lies for me.

Elfa, your right in your case a little back pressure can be a good thing. Like hahnmeister said, the BK design of a diffuser can compensate for big pump issues.

Do you have any pump tricks??

Show me your pumps tricks, Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll throw you some beads!!

I need help, Roland

 

[Roland Jacques]

One more thing. The taller and narrower the skimmer is the less this topic is relavant. The shorter and fatter the skimmer the more important the sleeve and diffuser becomes. My 20% plus comment was talking more about 24ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ skimmers the are 8ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ in diameter and larger.

 

[RandyStacyE]

This may sound a bit strange but I have seen some needle wheel pump ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œdiffusersââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ in some skimmer designs but they looked identical to inlet screens. Not too effective looking.

What do you think about using a Wiffle ball inside of a skimmer to diffuse (possibly reduce some turbulence within. The ball could be fitted facing virtually any direction. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve even seen some balls that have no holes in them what so ever, they can be drilled, could be made slotted etcââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦

From what I understand a tube inside of a tube would be for better performance to drive the air/water straight up, but not all skimmers use one. Couldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t this help to more evenly distribute the pumpââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s output?

 

[hahnmeister]

yourfishman, your comments might be true for a single pass skimmer, but I am talking about a recirculating needlewheel...so 20% of the water wont escape if the mixer pump's outlet is aimed downwards, since the water is coming into the skimmer from near the top and at a very low rate. For the bubble plate regarding 'back-pressure'...what I am saying is that there is a natural downdraft from the mixing pump's intake below that allows many bubbles to have an extended dwell time after they come out of the pump above that point. By making the bubble plate, the mixing pump's output is aimed upwards, and often from the lowest point in the skimmer. The orientation & depth is what creates more back-pressure, not the plate itself...and therefore less air intake.

For example, you can make a skimmer with the mixing pump's outlets about halfway up the skimmer body and the intakes a foot to 18" below this. If you size the body's diameter correctly, there will be a natural downdraft and small bubbles will stay in suspension all the way down to just above the mixing pump's own intakes. This increases dwell time greatly. A diffuser plate eliminates this possiblilty...too much junk in the way.

If you are interested in shorter skimmers...and ones where you feel the output would cause turbulence to the bubbles rising in the body due to the pump's proximity, then by all means, the plate might be a good idea. I just dont make skimmers like that.

You seem to prefer the shorter skimmer, I prefer the taller more efficient skimmer. Taller is better than wider any day.

 

[Roland Jacques]

There is no doubt that the same skimmer, the taller will be much better. But most aquariums stands have a limit 30", so that is what im focused on.

With that said my short 24""NW" skimmers with diffuser... and a foot print of 12"x17" will out perform a 10ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ diameter skimmer that is 36" tall. Partly due to diffuser and sleeves. BUT my inlet water also goes into the diffuser; this is where I mixed up skimmers. So

YOUââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢RE RIGHT about the recirculating pump I confused two skimmers. The 20% was comparing 2 single pass skimmers. I have to many skimmers, my bad. The one im working is a recirculating also, but it is very deferent than any others out there. So im was trying not to include it in this conversation but it seems like I did. Sorry what I said before mainly applies to my design.

But I still want to no your "pump tricks"

 

[hahnmeister]

the tricks depend on the application...the downward output is a great way to extend dwell time though...that inverted arc causes bubbles to stop for a moment in their downward trajectory and hang around for a bit...this helps alot.

As for a 12x17" skimmer that is 24" tall beating a skimmer that is 36" tall and 10" round...thats close, but much more can be said of a skimmer that increases its height by a percentage rather than its cross-sectional area by that same percentage. 12x17...I assume thats a square body, so thats 204 square inches. A 10" round body is 78.5 square inches. Lets say about 8" on either skimmer is riser/cup height, so that makes a 24" skimmer have at most 16" of height for a bubble to travel...and with a diffuser plate that means a straight shot up with a starting velocity to boost its way up (thats why I like the downward outlets because it slows a bubble to 0 before it begins its ascent, where a diffuser plate means up with a starting velocity). Now on a 36" tall skimmer, that still leaves 28" of height...almost double.

The fat skimmer is just so fat it prolly would make about as much output as the taller, but the taller would be able to process proteins that the shorter wouldnt be able to ever. The fat one has about 20% more area than double the taller.

But let me throw this one in...I use square bodies to sut down on MFG cost. And now that 10"x10" is a full 100 square inches...about 1/2 the area of the 'fatty'. Combined with 2x the height almost, and the ability to process more protein varieties with a longer dwell time per bubble....

Ill take the taller skimmer thank you.

 

[Roland Jacques]

Thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s a pump trick???? POINT THE OUTLET DOWN!!!!:rollface:

I thought redesigned the housing, made a better impeller, or even eliminated the need for a venture by using the natural low pressure area in the pump itself to pull in the air (not that I have done that trick

My skimmer would not cut down your production cost it would actually cost more. It is more complex than just a square skimmer. But youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢re getting warmer.

Remember I said BETTER than the 36" not equal to.

Do you of any other Square ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œfattyââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ I can look at? I want to see if anyone has anything like mine.

Not to highjack the thread

Their is some value to the extra agitation that take place inside the diffuser I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t no how you can measure that. call it the becket effect for lack of a better word

The bubble master diffuser design with itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s sleeve has a downdraft section so where the bubbles going up can also come down in the outer area where much More bubbles reach a 0 velocity than just point the discharge down design.

The point is reduce the overall velocity of all the water/bubble mixture, not just to have Some bubble reach 0 velocity.
Roland :mixed:

 

[H20ENG]

Yourfishman,
I've built a bunch of square stuff. Some of its in my gallery

Great thread here!

 

[hahnmeister]

I just wanted to point out that turbulence is an overrated issue IME. Look at becketts...they have fast moving downdraft towers, then all the bubbles get for exposure time is a few seconds in a black mixing box, and then the bubbles head into the collection tower which is mostly foam head. Loads of turbulence...yet loads of skimmate.

I would rate the production of a thick foam head a little higher on the list than turbulence reduction...thats all. When turbulence disrupts the foam head collection at the top, thats when I would be concerned, but beyond that...

The BK needs a diffuser plate or the whole body would be a whirlpool with that huge RD pump.

Adding it on to other pumps where turbulence wouldnt be a serious issuue would do very little and might cause other problems to deal with or limit other techniques from being used.

 

[spazz]

i am sitting in the middle of the fence on this one. there has been some good comments with information to back them up. and there has been some comments with no information to back them up.
i have built a couple of skimmers in my time. and i cant even say for sure that the defuser plates benifit the skimmer that much. but i am planning on testing these theroies out on an up comming skimmer for a large reef. im hoping to see if the defuser plates makes that much of a difference in the skimmers ability to produse skimmate. it will be run with and without the defuser plate in it. then we can see the actual difference in performance. the defuser plate can be easly made to be removable. the trick will be to make sure there is zero restriction on the pump.
the defuser plate is a newer design that has not been fully tested by the public for performance issues. and the bubble kings cant be tested because the defuser cant be removed.

 

[Bill Wann]

I have put a difuser plate on my rk2 about a year ago and must say that it about triples the faom output in this skimmer . I guess every skimmer is diffrent but I can see the logic behind the bubble plate .

 

[spazz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6935234#post6935234 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bill Wann
I have put a difuser plate on my rk2 about a year ago and must say that it about triples the faom output in this skimmer . I guess every skimmer is diffrent but I can see the logic behind the bubble plate .

thanks for that info bill. i know you have done alot of testing with your skimmer in the past so this information is good enough to take to the bank.

 

[hahnmeister]

Spazz, you mention that you dont want any back-pressure on the pump with the bubble-plate, but I think you still want a little on it. Otherwise water wouldnt flow out of it at all...lol. No, really, seriously, beyond the pressure needed to make it work, I have found that some pressure on the outlet can be put to good use. Forcing bubbles that may have combined while in the chamber through the holes in the plate can break them back up...much like sending air through an airstone...read me? I use this on several HOB skimmers where the output isnt as consistent as I like, only with one much larger outlet.

OR, the method I am considering is to simply use egg-crate. Its easier to set up, doesnt require sectioning off of the chamber (Its pretty much just putting a plate in place over the pump outlets), and because of its more open design, doesnt require pressure to make it work. It simply cuts down turbulence that isnt in the vertical. Dont trust it? Remember, its what they are designed for...only with light. Need more than what one can provide? Just stack em up.

 

[elfa]

Spazz, my turbulence reducer did affect the amount of air going into the skimmer. I had to restrict the amount after I removed the turbulence reducer inorder not to overflow the skimmer within seconds.

Vidar

 

[spazz]

well i guess i will have to make about 4-6 different defusers and see what one works the best. it wont be hard to do. just a little programing involved.

 

[elfa]

Spazz, one advice from me, dont use too thick acryl because you need the cone to go through the plate. I tried with 10mm acryl, 10mm cone ending in a 5mm hole (the cone stopped about halfway). With this plate the bubbles got stuck under the plate.

Another feature with the diffuser is because of the tube and the perforated top, much of the flow is directed downwards and therefore have some of the same effect as pointing the output downwards with an PVC elbow.


Vidar

 

[Bill Wann]

Spazz
What brand of router is that ? Is that one yours ?
pretty nice .

 

[spazz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6944677#post6944677 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bill Wann
Spazz
What brand of router is that ? Is that one yours ?
pretty nice .

im not sure on what brand of a router it is. most of the wrighting is chineese. i just got it yesterday. i have been waiting a month for this one. the nicest thing about this router is the liquid cooled router head and heavy duty linear berings. its an awesome little router.

 

[Bill Wann]

Where did you get it at ? Pretty sweet , liquid cooled motor .
What software are you using ?

 

[spazz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6944861#post6944861 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bill Wann
Where did you get it at ? Pretty sweet , liquid cooled motor .
What software are you using ?

i bought it from a company called tiger tec. im running 4 different programs for different things. i have type 3 for artistic cad/cam and sigh making. i use solid works for standard drawing. and mach 3 is the controling software. i use sheet cam for set up of g code and optimizing the layouts and special stuff.