red areas on fish

[klasiksb]

I have two regal angels that have been in QT for 34 days. They are currently in the middle of a Cupramine treatment and the second Prazipro treatment. The bigger of the angels has red areas on both side. Could this be from either treatment? He has been acting normal and eating very well. Today is the first day I've noticed the marks. The smaller angel has no such marks and they are seperated by eggcrate.

 

[McSassy]

Oh my favorite fish!

I'm no expert, but since you're treating with prazipro, the red marks may be where the flukes have come off of the fish (if that's what you were treating for).

 

[singold]

Mine won't eat anything, going on a week and a half now since got it.

 

[Gwynhidwy]

As McSassy said, it could be spots where external parasites were attached, but it looks to me like a possible bacterial infection.

 

[LargeAngels]

I'd treat with Maracyn II. I've used it with Cupramine and Prazipro with no ill affects.

 

[JHemdal]

Looks like it could be Uronema. One symptom are red bands that show up on the fish's flanks. Watch the fish's respiration rate - if it begins to increase in a day or two, that might be what this is. I hope not, because it is very difficult to treat. It is a protozoan that is capable of living between the cells in the fish's body - virtually impossible to get any medications in there. it is not however, an obligate parasite, so its presence does not always mean the other fish will come down with it....you can isolate it from most aquariums, nobody knows why some fish get infected while most don't

If it were my fish, I'd catch it up and take a tiny bit of the tissue from the lesion and look at it under a microscope at about 60 to 80x - look for moving protozoans.

One treatment I've experimented with is chloroquine at 10ppm...but it hasn't worked well on this intracellular Uronema.


Jay

 

[klasiksb]

Thanks all for your help. I started treating the tank tonight with Maracyn 2. I'll let you know how it goes.
Sheila

 

[wooden_reefer]

I have two regal angels that have been in QT for 34 days. They are currently in the middle of a Cupramine treatment and the second Prazipro treatment. The bigger of the angels has red areas on both side. Could this be from either treatment? He has been acting normal and eating very well. Today is the first day I've noticed the marks. The smaller angel has no such marks and they are seperated by eggcrate.

Having you been using UV at the intervals when you do not have drugs that are degraded by UV?

I'd always use UV in QT whenever posssible, when there is no possible drug degradation by UV.

Looks like external bacterial infection to me.

If UV doesn't help antibiotics should be used. If you have nitrification in QT, you should think about the effect of antibiotics and choose antibiotics carefully. Kanamycin and Neocmycin and erthoymycin do no gravely damage nitrification bacteria, only somewhat. What nitrite and ammonia then.

Good luck

 

[JHemdal]

WoodenReefer,

That's the problem with Uronema, it is virtually always mistaken for bacterial infections, and in some cases, you'll find Uronema and bacteria in the same lesion. Since Uronema can kill faster than bacteria, I always go that route first and look at a sample under a scope. Without a microscope, you just can't tell.


Jay

 

[klasiksb]

Well I'm on the second treatment of Macryn 2 and it does not seem to be improving, plus there is an addition symptom of what I would call raised scales.
The fish is still active and eating normally. It has also spread to the other fish in the Qt.After the first treatment I did a big water change and ran carbon for about 4 days and than started the second treatment.
I hope these pictures will help.

IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/klasikb/IMG_1110Medium.jpg[/IMG]

 

[klasiksb]

 

[JRR]

Please check all parameters of water quality. I've found when fish start in on these various problems water quality is usually to blame especially when using all the chemical treatments. I would imagine that if you test Ammonia, Nitrite, PH, Alkalinity that you will need to correct something. Quarantine systems are a must have but their water quality is always in jeopardy. If the fish is eating I would suggest giving the antibiotics thru food. Soak your food in the antibiotics for 10 mins or more and then feed very sparingly making sure the fish is eating what you give him. I've found usually a frozen food such as mysis is good and oily (smelly which may hide the antibiotics a bit) but if the fish is not eating the mysis already go with what your using that it likes. You may also consider making water changes adding a polyfilter and chemipure to the qt system and watching the fish for a day and if they are getting worse I would treat them in a separate large bucket with Nitrofurazone / Kanamycin. If doing this use an airstone a cover over the bucket along with a heater.

What salinity do you keep the qt tank at? As long as you keep PH / Alk up it maybe very helpful to slowly over the day lower the salinity down to 1.015.

I'm not an expert just trying to help. I've had this same thing happen numerous times and have been able to save a number of fish.

 

[klasiksb]

Well after treating with Macryn 2 my regal is not any better. Here are some updated photos taken after a 5 minute freshwater dip with Methylene Blue.

It's almost like something is eating away at him. I am now trying ParaGuard since in treats a wide variety of things. I'm not sure what the little worm like thing is thats sticking out of him. I may try a longer freshwater dip tomorrow. He is still eating.

 

[JHemdal]

I never say that a fish positively has this or that disease from just a photo, but these last pictures just scream Uronema to me.

If it is that, it is most likely too late to treat it (sorry) - even prompt treatments often fail. Chloroquine in a quarantine tank is one course of action. You can run some searches and see what else you could try - except AVOID any treatments that call for hyposalinity - these actually will make the Uronema worse.

Jay

 

[JRR]

JHemdal, I've had these white things come back out of many fish generally Angels. Have you ever studied what they are? It is almost like a worm of some type. If the fish are getting Uronema as I've seen this same thing on many Angels especially Regals what is your theory for its cause? Could it be some type of worm that causes this?

 

[klasiksb]

Thanks Jay, I did find one article so far about Uronema
http://www.reefs.org/library/aquarium_net/0397/0397_4.html
They recommend repeated longer freshwater baths.

 

[JHemdal]

All I've ever seen in those things are mucus, protozoans and bacteria all mixed together. I can't think of any worms that actually emerge from the side of a fish like that - some will emerge from the anus, and marine leeches will hang off of the skin....

Jay

 

[JHemdal]

Hyposalinity will only make the infection worse as Uronema actually prefers lower salinity. In fact, some people have had luck treating with hypersalinity.

IMO, FW prolonged dips will not help - while FW will kill Uronema, just like with Cryptocaryon, it is not an effective control method because too many of the organisms are able to avoid the FW by hiding in mucus, etc.


Jay

 

[JRR]

Could it be possible that this conditon gets started from something like Flukes that imbed under scales and then bother the tissue which now becomes susceptible to bacteria?

 

[JHemdal]

JRR,

I've not seen flukes cause this type of scale lifting, but very often you'll find Uronema and bacteria infecting the same lesion.

Jay