Red Sea Max: A beginner's step into a whole new world!

[netpez]

Hi all!


I am new to the community and last night was the start of our (my wife Huly just joined as well) Reef Aquarium adventure!


A couple weeks ago, we were privileged to be able to get our hands on a Red Sea Max 250 (65 gal). We figured the all in one setup would be good for rookies to the saltwater game and allow us a little leniency in our inexperience. We have been talking to a million folks and reading articles, blogs, forums and books. The only downside to that of course is that everyone has their own way of doing things (frustrating for someone looking for straight answers).


I setup the stand and the main tank along with the hood. While the systems itself is very cool and sleek looking, their instructions could use a bit more details and diagrams for those of us that are rookies with this equipment and don't fully understand their relationships (a youtube vide of a tank setup would be even better). Frustrations arose (specifically around the installation of the skimmer), and I cursed red sea max several times, but in the end, I got it done.


My wife and I are from Leesburg, VA, and we found a jewel of a place in Catharpin, VA called Blue Ribbon Koi (apparently well known on here) who were extremely knowledgaeble and were great folks to talk to about my setup. Given that we were initially setting up the system and I wanted 40 lbs+ of live rock, we took a trip up to That Fish Place in Lancaster, PA (yeah about a 2.5 hour drive) where we were able to pick up about 40 lbs of live rock and about 30 lbs of dead rock (some really cool pieces) for about 300 bucks (they have a big summer discount going on).


I already had some sand (2x40lb bags of CaribSea Ocean Direct Live Sand + 5 lb bag) from the guy I got the aquarium from. We ran out to Marine Scene for a buttload of 5 gallon tanks of RO/DI saltwater and some RO/DI freshwater (for top offs and other necessities). I thoroughly hosed down the dead rock till it ran clear and stacked the dead rock at the base and the live rock on top (girl at that fish place said no need for rinsing the rock as the stuff that comes off helps with the cycling of the tank. I hope that by stacking the live on top, that it seeds the rock below it. In the process of the stacking I made sure to create lots of caves and swim throughs so that my fish have a big playground! I took the hose again and thoroughly rinsed my live sand for about 10 min per batch making sure that I was scooping through all the sand and hopefully getting rid of all the dust and any fine particles or whatever else should not be in there.


We put the sand in the tank making sure to spread it fairly evenly throughout the tank and all around the rocks. I then started process of filling the tank with the saltwater.... this thing takes a lot of water! The proceses of filling the tank of course swirled the water (though I was spilling the water on the rocks trying to avoid direct pouring on the sand). after all was said and done we had...... a nice milky tank! LOL... Where did our rocks go?


The tank cleared significantly after about 6 hours, so I kicked off the pump leading through the filtration section and the pump that leads through the heating section of the tank. I did not turn the skimmer on, becuase I figure there is no protein to process and I did not turn the heater on because the water was already around 80 degrees (still is after about 12-14 hours).


The tank has really cleared up and the pumps seem to be doing their jobs. One thing that I did not mention, is that while I did keep the carbon bag in the red sea max filtration system (after rinsing of course), I replaced the contents of the biological bag (some sort of chalky white cylindrical objects) with a bunch of little chunks of live rock with a larger piece sitting on top of that bag. This has been recommended by a few folks I have talked to. As of now, the tank has been running with the filtration pumps since about 4:00am this morning (was up due to a long night of work). The tank looks good and I performed my first set of tests.. I also took some water in to a LFS to confirm my scores.


Here is what I got from my Coralife Deep Six Hydrometer:
Specific Gravity/Salinity PPT: 1.025 to 1.026/34


Here is what I got from my API Saltwater Master Test Kit:
Ammonia: 0 to 0.25
Ph: 7.9
nitrite: 2.0
nitrate: 20


Here is what my LFS got from using API 5 in 1 Aquarium Test Strips:
Ph: 7 (way off from what I got)
nitrite (NO2): 0
nitrate (NO3): 20
General Hardness (GH): 60
Carbonate Hardness (KH): 80


I am going to compile a list of questions and concerns I have in my next post, but for right now, here are some pics of the tank:

 

[netpez]

Issue 1 - Test Kits

I find it odd that I saw such a different reading on the ph level as my LFS. The reading of 7 vs 7.9 is major. As mentioned I used the API Saltwater Master Test Kit (using drops) while my LFS used the API 5 in 1 test strip. Is there a difference in reliability? Should I use the strips? Also my kit tests ammonia while the strips do not. The strips test General and Carbonate hardness while mine does not. I could use some recommendations on what I should be testing, and what are the best things to test with.


Issue 2 - Ph

From the previous issue, my LFS said the Ph is quite low. They recommended using marine buffer, but I am not sure if I should wait on that. From what I understand, the sand and the rock increase and stabilize Ph (is this accurate?) and since I just added my RO/DI stripped saltwater last night , that could explain the low ph and the PH could rise over the time of the cycle. Also, should I be changing anything since my cycle just started last night?


Issue 3 - The Cycle

I have heard from multiple people that some folks throw dead shrimp in their tank to kickstart the ammonia levels in their tank. As I understand it, the ammonia breaks down into nitrates and nitrites which feed bacteria (is this accurate?) My LFS guy said he never heard of that and that the live rock I got should shed and start its own ammonia cycle and he recommends against the shrimp. I have been hearing that the cycle of ammonia > nitrite/nitrates > bacteria > zero ammonia would be 2 weeks, some say 4, some say 6. What is the general consensus here?

I have also heard of people performing multiple cycles to build up more bacteria/maintaining bacteria. The explanation being that once the bacteria eats all the nitrates/nitrites, if it is all gone they die since there is nothing to eat, so once the ammonia levels go down to minimal, he throws more shrimp in and kickstarts the cycle all over again. Can anyone comment on the validity of the bacteria dying off if the ammonia is gone? Is there a cycle guideline that covers every intricate detail?


Issue 4 - Start Up Product

The LFS that provided our saltwater said that since half of our rock is dead rock, we should use something called "Start Up" from a company called Prodibio. Here is the description:

START UP together in the same package STOP AMMO START and START Biodigest. It allows to quickly start the biological filtration of aquarium and then introduce a few hours after the first fish.
START UP NANO may be also used to treat a nitrite peak.
START STOP AMMO is a product based on extracts of specific plants whose main property is to trap the nitrogen from ammonia. Biodigest START is composed of bacterial natural nitrifying, denitrifying and optional selected for their ability to quickly initiate the nitrogen cycle and thus to transform the ammonia into nitrites, nitrates and nitrites into nitrate nitrogen.
START UP allows you to rapidly introduce third of your toughest fish in your aquarium (after 4 hours in fresh water after 12 hours in seawater).

This seems counter-productive to the natural cycle process correct? Should I use this product? What are the advantages vs disadvantages?


Issue 5 - Aiptasia

I was told that if you get live rock you will probably get aiptasia no matter where you get it. Now one of the tricks I heard was getting Peppermint Shrimp which love aiptasia, but my LFS guy said that sure it does, but once it is done with the aiptasia it will go after my coral. That is the last thing I want! I have heard of injections you can use, but I don't think I am experienced enough for that. I also heard other methods which involve taking the rock out, but I have that stuff in there exactly as I want it, and I really don't want to take it out. Does anyone know of an easy method to get rid of the stuff before it comes time to add my corals?


Issues 6 - Water temp

At this point in time, our water temp is 80 degrees. Our house ranges from 73-76 degrees. At the time I added the water, I did not have a thermometer, so I was not able to read the temp then. How long will a 65 gallon tank adjust to the ambient temperature in a room? There is no direct sunlight on the aquarium (there is ambient light from a well lit room - lots of windows - again no direct sunlight).


Issue 7 - Red Sea Max

I was wondering if anyone here has experience with a red sea max (I have the 250). I was wondering what issues people may have come across and how they resolved them. I am also interested in tweaks people have made to the system as an example I have heard of people adding chillers, powerheads, phosphate reactors, UV filters, etc. Any input into this system and its shortfalls would be greatly appreciated!


Issue 8 - The good stuff!

After the cylce is complete, what are the recommendations on what to add to the system at the beginning. I have heard of snails and hermit crabs to get rid of the crap that will grow during the cycling period. Anyone have recommendations on which ones? Also how long till I can add corals and fish? should fish come first, or corals? Any input is appreciated!


I think that is it for my questions, but any other tips and tricks for a beginner would be awesome!

Thanks all !!
Pez

 

[staindsoul]

Welcome,

You dont need to drop a shrimp with all that live sand and rock. You will have die off from that will cycle Ammonia to Nitrite to Nitrate. With all that live rock/sand you will already some good bacteria. Add a small amount of flakes everyday for couple days till you see a ammonia spike, which you might not. Then you can go with a cuc. Check out reef cleaners they can give a custom cuc.

Those test strips are crap. Don't trust em.

You don't need multiple cycles, you just can't shock your system with a ton of new critters at once where the bacteria can't keep up with the bioload.

Issue 4 most everyone will tell you not to use that, you really don't need it.

You need a refractometer and not a hydrometer if your gonna do corals. That hydrometer is not accurate enough.

The others I really can't answer well.

Stickies in this section Are helping me tremendously.

 

[Reefmedic79]

1. Yes there is a difference in reliability, IMO. Strips IME, are not that reliable and thier reliablity is usually determine by how long the package has been open. I personally use Salifert test kits, they are a bit expensive though. In the beginning you should be testing for; pH, Alkalinity, Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate. After the tank has matured and you start adding corals Calcium and Magnesium test kits are needed.

2. I personally don't see any reson to add a buffer yet. What brand of Salt are you using? How far is your LFS from your home? (The time it takes for the trip could possibly effect the pH result. IME, time is the only thing you need to utilize during your cycle. Since your LR tooka 2.5 hours trip to get to your tank I don't think you need to do anything to get your cycle going, but you could "ghost feed" the tank by adding some fish food to increase the waste levels to boost the bacterial growth.

3. Close with the nitrogen cycle; Ammo>NitrIte>NitrAte. As I mentioned above your LR should start the cycle, but some do add a raw shrimp to rot and get the same outcome. Unfortunately there is alot of different opinions on the length of a cycle as everyones system is different, so in regards to your question everyone is right, it could take 2-8 weeks. This is where testing your water yourself is important, but I would only do it once a week, unless your bored.

4. I personally don't think it's necessary. LFS's are trying to make money and sometimes sell stuff that, IME. aren't needed.

5. Aptasia is a common hitchhiker on LR, peppermint shrimp are one of the ways of taking care of it, the catch here is there are a couple different species of shrimp sold as peppermint shrimp and only one or two of these species actually eats aptasia. I have never heard or seen a peppermint shrimp harm corals. Unfortunately the best way to get rid of them to prevent them from spreading once you find them. Injecting them with Joe's Juice, AptasiaX, Kalk Paste, or even boiling water have been known to take care of them, but persistance on your part is key, as they will be very persistant on thriving. Controling nutrient levels tend to help as well.

6. I'd say 80 is where your going to be, heat is caused by your lights and pumps in the tank. Adding a clip on fan over the sump or a couple even will help lower it. Although it will also increase evaporation. If your tank stays at 80 all the time that would be fine (anything between 76-82 is ok), consistency is key you don't want to fluctuate more than a couple of degrees throughout the day.

7. No personal experience with your system, but I too have heard about a lot of different upgrades people have made to the systems.

8. First additions would be your CUC or clean up crew. Are you running your lights during the cycle? Your CUC will consist of Snails and crabs mostly in the beginning, then other small invertabrate organisms can be added later like shrimp, cucumbers, sea stars, ect....Be sure to diversify the organisms in your CUC as some critters clean up certain areas of your tank better than others.
I personally like to add fish first as they will impact the bio-load the greatest in the tank and corals prefer more stable water parameters to thrive, but it more a matter of opinion.


<img src="/images/welcome.gif" width="500" height="62"><br><b><i><big><big>To Reef Central</b></i></big></big>

Take everything slow, nothing good happens fast, and the only stupid questions are the ones not asked.
-Jason

 

[Chaotic Reefer4u]

Netpez, [welcome] I really enjoyed reading your post, congratulations to you and your wife on the setup! As for your test kit in my experience I started out using the ones with the drops and then switched to strips some times you come across different readings just try and get a reputable testing kit theres alot of different brands out there nowadays do alot of research here and we will do our best and try and help you in whatever area need be. As for the cycle and the dead shrimp id say dont do it just let nature take its course and be patient and enjoy every step of the way. Nothing good happens fast, just disaster.

The product I used to cycle my tank was called 'CYCLE' it's in a bottle. I also used Natures Ocean live sand in the 25lb. Bags. It has live bacteria in it. As for the peppermint shrimp I say get them, from my experience they never touched a coral in my tank. Enjoy yourselves and like I said before patience is the KEY here! Hope this helps...

 

[Huly]

Here are some photos I took with my real camera that might give y'all a clearer idea of the set up:

Rock Aquascape

Starting to fill with water

Filled with water

Hope this helps!

 

[netpez]

staindsoul - Would shrimp hurt? I think using either shrimp or food provides the same results right? What would you recommend for a cleanup crew? I have heard turbo snails are good, but I have been hearing to stay away from all types of crabs (including hermit)... but who is gonna eat the crap at the bottom? Is the part about the bacteria dying off accurate if there is no more ammonia/nitrate/nitrite to consume? Would the cleanup crew provide enough for the bacteria to survive?

Reefmedic - I am using RO/DI saltwater from my LFS, so I am not sure exactly what salt they used. From what I am hearing it is a bit on the high side, so I may throw some RODI freshwater in there to bring it down a little (does someone have a formula for adjusting based upon measurements?) What do you mean "Close with the nitrogen cycle" ? Can I perform some of those ways you listed getting rid of aiptasia while the rock is still in the tank? I really don't want to re-move the rock around. Right now the temp is 80 without the lights being on, so that is my concern. Do you have recommendations on the contents of my cleanup crew? I have heard crabs are bad.

Chaotic Reefer - Thanks for the input on the testing. I am worried about my bacteria. I have no problem waiting for the cycle procedure, but when someone mentioned they throw a second dead shrimp in after their cycle to feed their bacteria or they die, I had not heard of that before. Will the bacteria die after all the ammonia/nitrate/nitrite is gone? Should I put my cleanup crew in slightly before all the bad stuff is gone, so there will be a continuous supply for the bacteria (and would cleanup crew waste be sufficient for the bacteria)? I have heard that some peppermint shrimp don't touch the aiptasia... have you seen that?

Seems as though everyone agrees that the strips are crap... will stay away from those.

 

[TRENT_G]

I just wanted to add because I see it way to often. Beware of the fish stores. They are their to make money and they make the most of it off new people. Do your own homework. I'm not saying their are bad. Just make sure and read, read, and read some more.

Very nice set-up. I had a RSM 130, nice tanks. Good luck with the tank.

PS get your own RO/DI unit. It will pay for its self in no time.

 

[netpez]

I just wanted to add because I see it way to often. Beware of the fish stores. They are their to make money and they make the most of it off new people. Do your own homework. I'm not saying their are bad. Just make sure and read, read, and read some more.

Very nice set-up. I had a RSM 130, nice tanks. Good luck with the tank.

PS get your own RO/DI unit. It will pay for its self in no time.

Trent... thanks... I see lots of RO/DI units out there, what do you recommend?

 

[TRENT_G]

I ended up buying from Thefilterguys. http://www.thefilterguys.biz/ro_di_systems.htm

They are a little more in price (not much) but they are very helpful. I was new to Saltwater when I got it. So I had never seen or used a RO/DI system. After reading a bunch of reviews about Thefilterguys I gave them a call and was impressed by their customer service. The owner answers the phone everytime I have called. Very nice people to deal with. Just give them a call and ask what they would recommend for your system. Then look around and see if they are for you.

Trent... thanks... I see lots of RO/DI units out there, what do you recommend?

 

[marklugo23]

nice set up

 

[netpez]

I just threw in my shrimp (got 2 and give them each a quick squishing blow). Currently I have my mechanical and biological filters on in the Red Sea Max, but the protein skimmer is currently off. Should I enable it, since a protein item is now in the tank?

Also, do I just leave the shrimp until they completely dissolve, or do I take them out after a while?

 

[netpez]

any takers on my previous question?

 

[Huly]

How long should we leave the shrimp? Until they are gone or just a few days?

 

[sw_df27]

I have got to say I really love you LR set up I am new to this too and mine lookes nothing like yours but I'm very impressed

 

[BigBarnacles]

I just threw in my shrimp (got 2 and give them each a quick squishing blow). Currently I have my mechanical and biological filters on in the Red Sea Max, but the protein skimmer is currently off. Should I enable it, since a protein item is now in the tank?

Also, do I just leave the shrimp until they completely dissolve, or do I take them out after a while?

Personally I'd wait to start the skimmer until the cycle is done. I also prefer waiting to add any carbon, GFO, or cheato until the cycle done.

 

[BigBarnacles]

How long should we leave the shrimp? Until they are gone or just a few days?

I left mine in for three days. Did the job well.

 

[sfmacguy]

Starting to look good! I too have a RSM250, and love the tank. Unfortunately I already had the upgrade bug bite, and have added some new lights and pumps

 

[nuclearheli]

Issue 1 - Test Kits


Issue 7 - Red Sea Max

I was wondering if anyone here has experience with a red sea max (I have the 250). I was wondering what issues people may have come across and how they resolved them. I am also interested in tweaks people have made to the system as an example I have heard of people adding chillers, powerheads, phosphate reactors, UV filters, etc. Any input into this system and its shortfalls would be greatly appreciated!

Pez

The tank you have now was my second tank following a nano several years ago. I liked the tank and the all in one configuration was the main reason why. But as I got more into reef tanks I started to realize the shortcomings of this arrangement.

Biggest problem - Skimmer. I don't know if they have improved the design in the past several years but I found once I established the tank and had livestock and corals the skimmer was inadequate and often malfunctioned.

Second issue - Maintaining the water temperature. While the enclosed lighting canopy is nice, maintaining the water temperature (on the cooler side) is impossible. The little fans I had in the back left corner didn't do anything of value to eliminate the heat. Eventually I had to open up the front of the cover all the time, put a portable fan blowing across the surface of the water, then eventually gave up and purchased a small chiller.

Third concern - Not enough water circulation. Need at least two more power heads in the tank for good circulation.

Fourth nuisance - Pain in the butt to clean, in the tank and the filtration system. It is hard to really clean out the pumps and filters without making a mess, also hard to perform water changes. I liked the tank but did not like the rounded corners. There was distortion in the tank when looking at it from different angles and it was hard to clean the inside of the corners.

Eventually I had a skimmer, chiller, and a reactor hanging off the back of the system hooked into the built in water taps. As my system grew it became apparent that the all in one concept had changed.

Ultimately I had to move the tank due to flooding (not tank related) to the finished basement and I ended up with a 90 gallon tank with sump and stuff. Now I am up to a 210 gallon. I sold the RS to somebody starting off and they loved it. But they also upgraded since then.

Overall this IS a great starter tank and I do like the Red Sea products. We had the tank for about one year. If you read these forums long enough you will quickly find yourself wanting to upgrade.

 

[Reefmedic79]

Reefmedic - I am using RO/DI saltwater from my LFS, so I am not sure exactly what salt they used. From what I am hearing it is a bit on the high side, so I may throw some RODI freshwater in there to bring it down a little (does someone have a formula for adjusting based upon measurements?)

As others have mentioned it would really benefit you getting your own RO/DI and mix your own salt. There are numerous filters available online for around $100-120. This will save you $$$ in the long run, plus you don't have to worry about when the last time the filters were changed, and you can control what brand of salt you want to use.

What do you mean "Close with the nitrogen cycle" ?

You had the Nitrite and Nitrate switched in your original post.

Can I perform some of those ways you listed getting rid of aiptasia while the rock is still in the tank? I really don't want to re-move the rock around.

They are all preformed in the tank.

Right now the temp is 80 without the lights being on, so that is my concern.

Adding fans over your sump or in the canopy can help. Upgrading your pumps to a cooler model may help as well.

Do you have recommendations on the contents of my cleanup crew? I have heard crabs are bad.

Diversifying is the most important, IME. I also personally like hermits, they fill a niche in my tank the snails don't. A lot of people don't like hermit crabs because they tend to kill your snails for thier shells. There are also some species that aren't reefsafe at all, but some species, like Scarlet Hermit, are less prone to do so especially if you purchase extra empty shells fro them to swap into. Each species of critter tend to work on specific areas of the tank.

Turbos, Astreas, Nerites- Algea and diatom eaters; Tend to stay on the rocks and glass
Ceriths- Keeps sand stirred;eat diatoms algea on Rocks, Glass, Sandbed
Nassarius- Dutritus/Scavenger, sand stirrer/turner.
Hermits- Algea, dutritus and scavenger; rocks and sandbed