Reef Ceramics
- Thread starter jerryz
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Insane Reefer
New member
I didn't make it by the masonry supply yesterday.
But it is an interesting process that I plan to try - the powdered aluminum reacts with the caustic cement paste and forms hydrogen bubbles in the cement - I wonder if it would work with the fast/quick set cements?
Mr Wilson, I know that certain additives can help control set time, and wondered if you knew of any that slowed the set and that also worked with these cements?
Thanks!
But it is an interesting process that I plan to try - the powdered aluminum reacts with the caustic cement paste and forms hydrogen bubbles in the cement - I wonder if it would work with the fast/quick set cements?
Mr Wilson, I know that certain additives can help control set time, and wondered if you knew of any that slowed the set and that also worked with these cements?
Thanks!
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Do the bubbles remain in the cement? or do they "pop"?
I would use carbon, ion exchange resins (Kent Toxic Metal Sponge or SeaChem Purigen) or Polyfilters in the soaking containers to pull out the residual aluminum.
I wouldn't mess with the setting process of quick setting cement mixes. The polymers may be adversely affected by reactive agents. If you are going to experiment with chemistry, start off with regular portland. Then at least you know all of the ingredients you are working with.
The science of cement is a huge field. There's lots of research out there on what doesn't work. This is where you will find exotic additives that will create void spaces and unique textures.
I made a faux concrete aquarium stand for an installation a few years ago in the middle of winter. I mixed Durabond 90 plaster compound with portland and a small amount of aragonite (as a parging mix over a plywood base). I was working outside in freezing temperatures and was pleasantly surprised to find a unique texture caused by the surface moisture freezing.
The longer you work the cement with your hands or tools, the more moisture and fine aggregate works to the surface. This is how concrete workers and pyramid builders get a smooth shinny surface. Faux coral rock should be made without too much handling to preserve the rough coral-like texture.
I use lag bolts, screwdrivers, nails, and coral branches to make a texture on the faux rock surface. Working with somewhat dry cement aids in the formation of these textures and holes. The large thread of a lag bolt makes a nice polychaete worm "fossil" if you roll it parallel to the rock. You can see some of these in the pictures in my earlier posts.
Insane Reefer
New member
Thanks for the info!
The bubbles, from what I gather, leave very tiny pores/voids behind. I think these bubbles are caused by the pressure of the hydrogen pushing to get out, and not bubbles like made with soap.
From what I've been reading, it can increase the volume of the piece by up to 50% (?) think that was the number given - don't quote me though).
And very nice base. Care to go into more details on how you made it?
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10192260#post10192260 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Thanks for the info!
The bubbles, from what I gather, leave very tiny pores/voids behind. I think these bubbles are caused by the pressure of the hydrogen pushing to get out, and not bubbles like made with soap.
From what I've been reading, it can increase the volume of the piece by up to 50% (?) think that was the number given - don't quote me though).
And very nice base. Care to go into more details on how you made it?
The surrounding space is full of hi-tech audio video equipment, glass and concrete, so the tank had to match.
I used two custom metal stands for the structural aspects, and a 1/2" plywood for the access panels. The front and sides are a one piece U that slides in & out on plastic feet. The back is open to the adjacent sofa.
The four plumbing lines go through the bottom of the tank (two on each side).
First I scored the plywood with a table saw. Then I used a white glue-based cement bonding agent on the plywood. The parging mix was 50% Durabond 90 (water-resistant fast setting drywall compound/mud) for its' bonding properties, 30% portland (for strength & durability), and 20% fine aragonite for colour, texture and shrinkage control. The final step was etching the surface with muriatic acid to open the pores, remove loose material, and stabilize PH.
Insane Reefer
New member
Cool - thanks for the break-down
Why was an external piece acid etched for pH?
Why was an external piece acid etched for pH?
RichardReef
New member
I read this whole thread and am very intrested in making a cement wall on 3 sides of my new 440 tank, its going in the wall.
I am unlcear on what is the best mix to do this. The safest stuff for the tank and best mixture?
Thanks
Richard
I am unlcear on what is the best mix to do this. The safest stuff for the tank and best mixture?
Thanks
Richard
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
mr.wilson is they guy to talk to. He has done some rather large tanks and can guide you in the right direction.
hawaiianwargod
Active member
Just an info to help out others:
Just an info to help out others:
I've been searching Thorite cement here in Northern California but could not find one...went to various HD's and Lowes and other local hardware stores but found none.
After going to one cement store however, I finally found it.
The cement store owner told me that Thorite brand is no longer exist as they changed their name to Demaco. sp?
So if anybody looking for Thorite cement especially in Northern California, try searching Demaco cement.
Happy reefing everyone!
Just an info to help out others:
I've been searching Thorite cement here in Northern California but could not find one...went to various HD's and Lowes and other local hardware stores but found none.
After going to one cement store however, I finally found it.
The cement store owner told me that Thorite brand is no longer exist as they changed their name to Demaco. sp?
So if anybody looking for Thorite cement especially in Northern California, try searching Demaco cement.
Happy reefing everyone!
Aqua Keepers
New member
I tried makeing some DIY rock panals out of portland and solar salt crystals and they crumbled. These were 2" thich. Now I think I'll try mr.wilson's recipe.
Mr.wilson, I wanna do removable rock panals. All I can find around here is the Quikrete "hydraulic water stop". I also think that useing aggcrate would be best for this. I'll be adding cut acrylic and PVC to the eggcratte to create shelves. How thick do you think the panals should be?
Mr.wilson, I wanna do removable rock panals. All I can find around here is the Quikrete "hydraulic water stop". I also think that useing aggcrate would be best for this. I'll be adding cut acrylic and PVC to the eggcratte to create shelves. How thick do you think the panals should be?
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Hydraulic Water Stop will work well. It has excellent bonding strength, quick PH stabilization, no shrinkage cracks or gaps, and is ready to use the next day. The only problem with it is the very short work time. You have to mix it just right so you have "cookie dough" consistency so it van be modeled like clay.
If you mix it too dry, it will go hard in the bucket before you can use it. If you mix it too wet, it will not hold the shapes and ledges you form it into. You can apply it and go back a minute later and form it as it gets a little harder.
Some people have commented that they don't want a waterproof cement, as it will not allow for adequate biological filtration. First of all, there is no shortage of sites for aerobic and anaerobic bacteria in the substrate and in a remote deep sand bed. Any viable sites for bacteria in the rock or wall panels is redundant. Secondly, the waterproof cement mix is only waterproof if used on its' own, straight out of the bag. Once you add aggregate (50% oyster shell, or aragonite) it's no longer waterproof. I can see water freely flowing through the rock walls I've done.
I used Bomix "Swift Patch" on a recent project with good results. Its' main advantage is the longer, 20 minute, work time (compared to 2 minutes with Hydraulic Water Stop). I used eggcrate pieces to support larger shelves. All of the PVC plumbing was covered with oystercrete, so there's little room for live rock. I'll put a few pieces in the sump and centre of the tank to help seed the tank.
The eggcrate (eggcrete
) shelves can be thin enough to just cover the plastic. You could go over it again with a second layer to add more peaks and ridges, but you have to work the new material into the old layer to bring the water to the surface and feather (blend/taper) the edges. Otherwise, seams will appear around the edges. I do it all in one 1" coat with thicker peaks and ridges.
I'll post pictures in the next post.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Here are some pictures of the 100 gallon tank (36 x 12 x 36) with eggrete shelves, end walls, and plumbing.
These were taken as I did the work, so the cement is still wet (dark) in some photos. I used two more eggcrate peices for shelves on the second side near the top.
The PVC plumbing (drain, return, and closed loop lines) were done seperately, outside of the tank, then added while the end wall oystercrete was still workable. A few areas were filled in with a second coat to blend the plumbing into the end walls.
These were taken as I did the work, so the cement is still wet (dark) in some photos. I used two more eggcrate peices for shelves on the second side near the top.
The PVC plumbing (drain, return, and closed loop lines) were done seperately, outside of the tank, then added while the end wall oystercrete was still workable. A few areas were filled in with a second coat to blend the plumbing into the end walls.
Insane Reefer
New member
That looks great Mr Wilson - what type of tank is that? Unusual plumbing in it...
Pito. I've made 2 back-walls with the traditional mix. I've attempted two with salt. I've concluded that unless you allow the salted wall pieces to sit in a damp place for like 3-4 weeks, it inevitably fails. I've even noted that salt should be left out of panel pieces just for this reason in my "Super Long Post" over in the "Ultimate DIY Rock" thread.
The back wall pieces I have made that worked were the basic Ol' Skool recipe, and were in my tank after 3 weeks - the other took longer (larger and thicker), but it went into its' tank at about 6 weeks.
Really, while I am "Some people", I think the fast sets are just fine for wall work or plumbing covering. I just like to stick closer to the beaten path when it comes to rock for filtration...
Pito. I've made 2 back-walls with the traditional mix. I've attempted two with salt. I've concluded that unless you allow the salted wall pieces to sit in a damp place for like 3-4 weeks, it inevitably fails. I've even noted that salt should be left out of panel pieces just for this reason in my "Super Long Post" over in the "Ultimate DIY Rock" thread.
The back wall pieces I have made that worked were the basic Ol' Skool recipe, and were in my tank after 3 weeks - the other took longer (larger and thicker), but it went into its' tank at about 6 weeks.
Really, while I am "Some people", I think the fast sets are just fine for wall work or plumbing covering. I just like to stick closer to the beaten path when it comes to rock for filtration...
Aqua Keepers
New member
Sweet looking rock there Mr. Wilson
Insane Reefer, Whats the basic Ol' Skool recipe? I made some rock out of the Portland/Salt mix that are sweet. It just did'nt hold true for my panals.
Insane Reefer, Whats the basic Ol' Skool recipe? I made some rock out of the Portland/Salt mix that are sweet. It just did'nt hold true for my panals.
Insane Reefer
New member
Rock Recipes
Ingredients are measured by volume, not weight!
Travis’ Original Recipe: 4:1 or 3:1 / Salt:Cement
Improved? Recipe: 3:1 or 2:1 / Salt:Cement
Ol' Skool Recipe: 1: 1.5: 1 / Cement:CC&OS(mixed):Sand
Ol' Skool+ Recipe: 1: 1 to 1.5 : 1.5 :1 / Salt:Cement:CC&OS(mixed):Sand
When I say "Mixed", this in reality means a total of 3 parts, 1.5 parts CC and 1.5 parts OS - I need a better way to show that, I think.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
It's an acrylic tank that's going in a wall. It's viewed from both sides, so the narrow (12") footprint makes it difficult to stack rock in a 3' tall tank. I've decided to for go the use of any rock (dead or alive) and just use the end panels and PVC plumbing for aquascaping.
The other benefit of having everything cemented in place is there are no rock-slides to worry about. I'll put a few pieces of quality live rock in the sump to seed the tank. I'm also using some "used" sand to jump start it.
The tank is mostly for fish with only a few soft corals. I'll cover the rock with the prolific corals that many hardcore reefers deem as "pests", such as xenia, green star polyps, and leathers.
The plumbing isn't unusual for me. It has a surface skimmer with a Stockman at one end, and the sump return line at the opposing end. The return goes close to the surface to avoid back-siphoning into the sump in the basement (it's a Canadian thing). The return line has one "branch" that is capped. I added it only to provide shape to the tank.
The closed loop intake runs fairly high in the tank so the intake strainer can be cleaned easily, and to keep sand out of the pump. Everything is set-up for circular motion from bottom to top and back.
Some of the plumbing has extra 45 degree elbows to make it look more like coral branches. thee are no straight lines in nature, so I avoid them within the tank. In some instances it quiets drains and minimizes bubbles.
I tried salt with a few walls, and it proved to be difficult to work with. The same holes can be made with tools without jeopardising bonding strength and maleability. Salt tended to melt the cement, making it more difficult to sculpt the more you model it. I think it's due to the thin layer of material and moisture reaching the salt crystlls as you work it by hand. Salt works for rock pieces because you don't work the cement once you drop it in the sand casting.
eastcoaster1
New member
Mr. Wilson,
Can you provide provide some more detail on how you made the surface skimmer? I get the Durso part, but I'm unsure what fittings you used to create the entire assembly.
Thanks!
Can you provide provide some more detail on how you made the surface skimmer? I get the Durso part, but I'm unsure what fittings you used to create the entire assembly.
Thanks!
Last edited:
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
I don't have any pics to post, but I posted some pics and instructions a while back here http://www.aquariumpros.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=19623&highlight=diy+overflow
I went with PVC because it's cheaper and quicker than acrylic. The Stockman has large (1.5" x 1.5") slots on each side of the drain rather than drilled holes to avoid clogging.
No slots were added to this one, as they tend to clog with algae and get bypassed (overflowed) anyway.
It can drain about 1000 GPH without significant sound. If you want it dead silent, raise the centre drain piece so the water only drops 1/4" over the 4" outer coupling. Alternatively, you can place a round (Fluval fits) sponge in the 4" coupling at the top. Just don't allow the sponge to clog.
Off the top of my head, the parts list is as follows (from the bottom up)...
1 - 1.5" pipe (drain to sump)
1 - 2" x 1.5" reducer bushing (slip x slip)
1 - 4" x 2" reducer bushing (slip x slip)
1 - 4" coupling (slip x slip)
1 - 1.5" pipe (about 4-5")
1 - 2" x 1.5" reducer bushing (slip x slip)
1 - 2" coupling (slip x slip)
1 - 2" end cap with 1/4" hole in centre (you can use reducers and have a smaller cap)
* some of these parts may need some minor grinding to remove the stopper at the bottom of the female socket. It depends on the manufacturer.
Insane Reefer
New member
How much do you sell those for, lol.
Plumbing is not something I'm good at...
Plumbing is not something I'm good at...
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