Reef Ich Problem - Need Advise

[MrTuskfish]

Tho I am still in doubt it really is ich, or something else:

I never see him flashing, altho I am in day 3 of Herbtana treatment.
I didn't want to take any chances, so I just immediately started dosing it.

I'm no expert at diagnosing from a pic; but the spots on the anal fin sure look like ich to me. I'd post this on a new thread; it will get the attention it deserves.

 

[RiversideGator]

Update 4/14/11 - Day 8

Day 1

Noticed a few Ich spots on my Chevron Tang - Normal behavior and eating well. No other fish show any signs of Ich.

Day 3

I started soaking the food in Selcon and garlic juice. All fish feeding well.

Day 5

I performed a 27% water change and noticed the Chevron Tang starting to have a difference in breathing with slight jerky motions. Still eating well.

Day 6

Dosed with Kick Ich at 6:00 AM; Tang is still breathing different and still only a few spots. At 10:00 PM he was hiding and breathing heavy but came out to eat. I see a few new spots. Still no sign of spots on other fish. Some Pulsing Xenia are withered and do not look well.

Day 7

The Chevron Tang is still breathing different and now has several noticable spots. He is still hiding and breathing heavy but still comes out to eat and chases other fish. I now see some discoloration of pectoral fins on the Black Blenny; this is what the Chevron Tang's pectoral fins 7 days ago. There no signs of spots on the other 3 fish. Some Pulsing Xenia have died and are obviously no longer pulsing. No damage visible damage to any other corals. I am now debating whether to dose for "heavy infection" which includes one additional dosing (Days 1, 3, 5, 7, 10 and 13 instead of 1, 4, 7, 10 and 13).

Day 8

Dosed with Kick Ich (Day 3 of treatment) at 6:00 AM. No noticable changes from yesterday. I definitely believe the Kick Ich cause Xenia death. I am still soaking the food in Selcon and garlic juice. All fish are still feeding well. I feed 3X per day. The 1st feeding are Tropical Crisps; the 2nd feeding is Formula 2 pellets; and the 3rd feeding is a rotation of frozen food: Mysis Shrimp, Brine Shrip w/spirulina and Cyclopeeze. I feed at 8:00 PM, 10:00 PM and 11:30 PM. I am gone all day and a good part of the night.

Day 9

No news to report. Everthing seems the same as day 8.

Day 10

Dosed with Kick Ich (Day 5 of treatment) at 9:30 AM. At 6:00 PM I see that the remaining original Xenia are no longer pulsing but no withered. The recent split-off colonies are still pulsing. I did add some DKH buffer today along with some Colonize.

I haven't seen my fan worm come out in a few days. The Tang looks the same but is no longer hiding and is very active. It does not appear that it has difficulty breathing. No new spots on other fish; the Black Blenny appears to have the same spots on the pectoral fin.

Thanks all again for your comments, advice and feedback.

Matt

 

[FocusFin]

Update 4/14/11 - Day 8

The Tang looks the same but is no longer hiding and is very active. It does not appear that it has difficulty breathing. No new spots on other fish; the Black Blenny appears to have the same spots on the pectoral fin.

Thanks all again for your comments, advice and feedback.

Matt

This is really positive news, it must come as a relief to see the Tang acting normal again.

Keep up the good work and update again for us.

Mike

 

[travis32]

no one responded to my thread yet on my powder brown tang. but, my QT was fallow for 3 months. The fish store received a powder brown tang. It was in their display for at most 5 hours... I transported my tang to my QT. at 1.025.

Day 1-2: No spots, tang acting and eating fine.

Day3: Sudden appearance of white spots. Immediately reduced SG to start hypo. Temp fluctuations due to air temp between 72 and 78.

Day 4: Achieved Hypo. White spots gone.

Week 1: Checked SG with uncalibrated refrac SG was at 1.009.
Week 2: received calibration fluid at 35ppt, calibrated refrac. Measured SG of hypo. showed at 1.007.
Week 3-4. Did intermittent water changes maintained SG with current refrac settings at 1.007.

Start of week5: Contemplated increasing SG, but didn't take time to start doing the neccessary water changes.
Mid week 5: Noticed spots and worm like things in tank. Made decision to maintain hypo another 2 weeks. Less than 12 hours later (noticed in evening, then checked next morning) Next morning all white spots apparently gone.

Weeks 6 and 7 in hypo: No additional spots and no change in tank behavior. Decided to try dosing general cure. Tang appeared to go crazy with half dose. Started pacing the tank, scratching constantly at it's side to the point of nearly injuring itself on the rocks.

End of week 7 did 40% water change, put carbon back in, and terminated the general cure treatment due to the potential to cause neurological damage in fish.

Week 7: Raised SG during water changes to prepare moving to the display.

End of week 8 achieved matching salinities and temp to display. Moved fish to display.

Now approximately 3 weeks later or almost 3 months of having the fish, it has numerous white specks on both sides of it's body. I have to press my head within 3 -4 " of the fish to see them or they are otherwise invisible. They're little whit bumps all over.

If it is ich, then Hypo was a complete waste of time, energy and effort as it had no effect on the fish. No other fish in my display shows any signs of these white specks / bumps.

Unless it's worms of some type... In which case, copper and hypo would have no effect.

 

[MrTuskfish]

no one responded to my thread yet on my powder brown tang. but, my QT was fallow for 3 months. The fish store received a powder brown tang. It was in their display for at most 5 hours... I transported my tang to my QT. at 1.025.

Day 1-2: No spots, tang acting and eating fine.

Day3: Sudden appearance of white spots. Immediately reduced SG to start hypo. Temp fluctuations due to air temp between 72 and 78.

Day 4: Achieved Hypo. White spots gone.

Week 1: Checked SG with uncalibrated refrac SG was at 1.009.
Week 2: received calibration fluid at 35ppt, calibrated refrac. Measured SG of hypo. showed at 1.007.
Week 3-4. Did intermittent water changes maintained SG with current refrac settings at 1.007.

Start of week5: Contemplated increasing SG, but didn't take time to start doing the neccessary water changes.
Mid week 5: Noticed spots and worm like things in tank. Made decision to maintain hypo another 2 weeks. Less than 12 hours later (noticed in evening, then checked next morning) Next morning all white spots apparently gone.

Weeks 6 and 7 in hypo: No additional spots and no change in tank behavior. Decided to try dosing general cure. Tang appeared to go crazy with half dose. Started pacing the tank, scratching constantly at it's side to the point of nearly injuring itself on the rocks.

End of week 7 did 40% water change, put carbon back in, and terminated the general cure treatment due to the potential to cause neurological damage in fish.

Week 7: Raised SG during water changes to prepare moving to the display.

End of week 8 achieved matching salinities and temp to display. Moved fish to display.

Now approximately 3 weeks later or almost 3 months of having the fish, it has numerous white specks on both sides of it's body. I have to press my head within 3 -4 " of the fish to see them or they are otherwise invisible. They're little whit bumps all over.

If it is ich, then Hypo was a complete waste of time, energy and effort as it had no effect on the fish. No other fish in my display shows any signs of these white specks / bumps.

Unless it's worms of some type... In which case, copper and hypo would have no effect.

Why don't you start your thread in the disease section? its really hard to track more than one problem on the same thread.

 

[RiversideGator]

Update 4/18/11 - Day 12

Day 1

Noticed a few Ich spots on my Chevron Tang - Normal behavior and eating well. No other fish show any signs of Ich.

Day 3

I started soaking the food in Selcon and garlic juice. All fish feeding well.

Day 5

I performed a 27% water change and noticed the Chevron Tang starting to have a difference in breathing with slight jerky motions. Still eating well.

Day 6

Dosed with Kick Ich at 6:00 AM; Tang is still breathing different and still only a few spots. At 10:00 PM he was hiding and breathing heavy but came out to eat. I see a few new spots. Still no sign of spots on other fish. Some Pulsing Xenia are withered and do not look well.

Day 7

The Chevron Tang is still breathing different and now has several noticable spots. He is still hiding and breathing heavy but still comes out to eat and chases other fish. I now see some discoloration of pectoral fins on the Black Blenny; this is what the Chevron Tang's pectoral fins 7 days ago. There no signs of spots on the other 3 fish. Some Pulsing Xenia have died and are obviously no longer pulsing. No damage visible damage to any other corals. I am now debating whether to dose for "heavy infection" which includes one additional dosing (Days 1, 3, 5, 7, 10 and 13 instead of 1, 4, 7, 10 and 13).

Day 8

Dosed with Kick Ich (Day 3 of treatment) at 6:00 AM. No noticable changes from yesterday. I definitely believe the Kick Ich cause Xenia death. I am still soaking the food in Selcon and garlic juice. All fish are still feeding well. I feed 3X per day. The 1st feeding are Tropical Crisps; the 2nd feeding is Formula 2 pellets; and the 3rd feeding is a rotation of frozen food: Mysis Shrimp, Brine Shrip w/spirulina and Cyclopeeze. I feed at 8:00 PM, 10:00 PM and 11:30 PM. I am gone all day and a good part of the night.

Day 9

No news to report. Everthing seems the same as day 8.

Day 10

Dosed with Kick Ich (Day 5 of treatment) at 9:30 AM. At 6:00 PM I see that the remaining original Xenia are no longer pulsing but no withered. The recent split-off colonies are still pulsing. I did add some DKH buffer today along with some Colonize.

I haven't seen my fan worm come out in a few days. The Tang looks the same but is no longer hiding and is very active. It does not appear that it has difficulty breathing. No new spots on other fish; the Black Blenny appears to have the same spots on the pectoral fin.

Day 11

I still haven't seen the fan worm. The snail activity is moving much slower.

Day 12

Dosed with Kick Ich (Day 7 of treatment) at 6:00 AM. At 8:00 PM I see that the fan worm is definitely dead. No other changes in the fish; they are all feeding well.

Thanks all again for your comments, advice and feedback.

Matt

 

[RiversideGator]

Update 4/21/11 - Day 15

Day 1

Noticed a few Ich spots on my Chevron Tang - Normal behavior and eating well. No other fish show any signs of Ich.

Day 3

I started soaking the food in Selcon and garlic juice. All fish feeding well.

Day 5

I performed a 27% water change and noticed the Chevron Tang starting to have a difference in breathing with slight jerky motions. Still eating well.

Day 6

Dosed with Kick Ich at 6:00 AM; Tang is still breathing different and still only a few spots. At 10:00 PM he was hiding and breathing heavy but came out to eat. I see a few new spots. Still no sign of spots on other fish. Some Pulsing Xenia are withered and do not look well.

Day 7

The Chevron Tang is still breathing different and now has several noticable spots. He is still hiding and breathing heavy but still comes out to eat and chases other fish. I now see some discoloration of pectoral fins on the Black Blenny; this is what the Chevron Tang's pectoral fins 7 days ago. There no signs of spots on the other 3 fish. Some Pulsing Xenia have died and are obviously no longer pulsing. No damage visible damage to any other corals. I am now debating whether to dose for "heavy infection" which includes one additional dosing (Days 1, 3, 5, 7, 10 and 13 instead of 1, 4, 7, 10 and 13).

Day 8

Dosed with Kick Ich (Day 3 of treatment) at 6:00 AM. No noticable changes from yesterday. I definitely believe the Kick Ich cause Xenia death. I am still soaking the food in Selcon and garlic juice. All fish are still feeding well. I feed 3X per day. The 1st feeding are Tropical Crisps; the 2nd feeding is Formula 2 pellets; and the 3rd feeding is a rotation of frozen food: Mysis Shrimp, Brine Shrip w/spirulina and Cyclopeeze. I feed at 8:00 PM, 10:00 PM and 11:30 PM. I am gone all day and a good part of the night.

Day 9

No news to report. Everthing seems the same as day 8.

Day 10

Dosed with Kick Ich (Day 5 of treatment) at 9:30 AM. At 6:00 PM I see that the remaining original Xenia are no longer pulsing but no withered. The recent split-off colonies are still pulsing. I did add some DKH buffer today along with some Colonize.

I haven't seen my fan worm come out in a few days. The Tang looks the same but is no longer hiding and is very active. It does not appear that it has difficulty breathing. No new spots on other fish; the Black Blenny appears to have the same spots on the pectoral fin.

Day 11

I still haven't seen the fan worm. The snail activity is moving much slower.

Day 12

Dosed with Kick Ich (Day 7 of treatment) at 6:00 AM. At 8:00 PM I see that the fan worm is definitely dead. No other changes in the fish; they are all feeding well.

Day 15

Dosed with Kick Ich (Day 10 of treatment) at 6:00 AM. At 8:00 PM I see that the Black Blenny has a few more Ich spots as well as the Tang. No other changes in the fish; they are all still feeding well. Most surviving Xenia are still not pulsing; however, the newest colonies directly below the metal halides are still pulsing.


Thanks all again for your comments, advice and feedback.

Matt

 

[RiversideGator]

Update 4/21/11 - Day 18

Day 1

Noticed a few Ich spots on my Chevron Tang - Normal behavior and eating well. No other fish show any signs of Ich.

Day 3

I started soaking the food in Selcon and garlic juice. All fish feeding well.

Day 5

I performed a 27% water change and noticed the Chevron Tang starting to have a difference in breathing with slight jerky motions. Still eating well.

Day 6

Dosed with Kick Ich at 6:00 AM; Tang is still breathing different and still only a few spots. At 10:00 PM he was hiding and breathing heavy but came out to eat. I see a few new spots. Still no sign of spots on other fish. Some Pulsing Xenia are withered and do not look well.

Day 7

The Chevron Tang is still breathing different and now has several noticable spots. He is still hiding and breathing heavy but still comes out to eat and chases other fish. I now see some discoloration of pectoral fins on the Black Blenny; this is what the Chevron Tang's pectoral fins 7 days ago. There no signs of spots on the other 3 fish. Some Pulsing Xenia have died and are obviously no longer pulsing. No damage visible damage to any other corals. I am now debating whether to dose for "heavy infection" which includes one additional dosing (Days 1, 3, 5, 7, 10 and 13 instead of 1, 4, 7, 10 and 13).

Day 8

Dosed with Kick Ich (Day 3 of treatment) at 6:00 AM. No noticable changes from yesterday. I definitely believe the Kick Ich cause Xenia death. I am still soaking the food in Selcon and garlic juice. All fish are still feeding well. I feed 3X per day. The 1st feeding are Tropical Crisps; the 2nd feeding is Formula 2 pellets; and the 3rd feeding is a rotation of frozen food: Mysis Shrimp, Brine Shrip w/spirulina and Cyclopeeze. I feed at 8:00 PM, 10:00 PM and 11:30 PM. I am gone all day and a good part of the night.

Day 9

No news to report. Everthing seems the same as day 8.

Day 10

Dosed with Kick Ich (Day 5 of treatment) at 9:30 AM. At 6:00 PM I see that the remaining original Xenia are no longer pulsing but no withered. The recent split-off colonies are still pulsing. I did add some DKH buffer today along with some Colonize.

I haven't seen my fan worm come out in a few days. The Tang looks the same but is no longer hiding and is very active. It does not appear that it has difficulty breathing. No new spots on other fish; the Black Blenny appears to have the same spots on the pectoral fin.

Day 11

I still haven't seen the fan worm. The snail activity is moving much slower.

Day 12

Dosed with Kick Ich (Day 7 of treatment) at 6:00 AM. At 8:00 PM I see that the fan worm is definitely dead. No other changes in the fish; they are all feeding well.

Day 15

Dosed with Kick Ich (Day 10 of treatment) at 6:00 AM. At 8:00 PM I see that the Black Blenny has a few more Ich spots as well as the Tang. No other changes in the fish; they are all still feeding well. Most surviving Xenia are still not pulsing; however, the newest colonies directly below the metal halides are still pulsing.

Day 18

Dosed with Kick Ich (Day 13 of treatment) at 8:30 AM. At 11:00 PM I see that the Tang has the "rolled in salt" type apprearance on the head and face; the is one cyst on the eye. No other changes in the fish; they are all still feeding well. I lost a Mexican Turbo Snail today.

The Kick Ich is supposed to be a 15 day formula; however, the Tang appearance has gotton worse. I am now debating performing a 33% water change on day 16 starting over with a new Kick Ich cycle. Does anyone have any opinions on that?

Thanks

Matt

 

[victorcan]

Buy cleaner shrimp and stop dosing.. If doing a water change I syphon my sand bed thouroughlly without stirring up too much ( make sure there's no flow water movement)
Ich treatments have never worked for me? And always ended up killing parts of my reef.
Tangs are ich magnets need excellent water and stress free ( no ther tanga to chase new ones around... Good luck

 

[FocusFin]

If the Tang is still eating and not in any obvious distress then he's probably okay and will turn a corner soon. As stated previously my Tang took several weeks of improved nutrition before he started getting better. At times he appeared to be getting worse but in fact it was the "cysts" breaking through from under the skin and then eventually falling off. This gave the appearance of being rolled in salt.

Unfortunately, with limited options you will have to weigh the cost vs benefit of continuing the Kick Ich. Another round may cost you more in lost coral than saving a fish (if in fact it is working on the fish).

 

[RiversideGator]

Update 5/01/11 - Day 25

Day 1

Noticed a few Ich spots on my Chevron Tang - Normal behavior and eating well. No other fish show any signs of Ich.

Day 3

I started soaking the food in Selcon and garlic juice. All fish feeding well.

Day 5

I performed a 27% water change and noticed the Chevron Tang starting to have a difference in breathing with slight jerky motions. Still eating well.

Day 6

Dosed with Kick Ich at 6:00 AM; Tang is still breathing different and still only a few spots. At 10:00 PM he was hiding and breathing heavy but came out to eat. I see a few new spots. Still no sign of spots on other fish. Some Pulsing Xenia are withered and do not look well.

Day 7

The Chevron Tang is still breathing different and now has several noticable spots. He is still hiding and breathing heavy but still comes out to eat and chases other fish. I now see some discoloration of pectoral fins on the Black Blenny; this is what the Chevron Tang's pectoral fins 7 days ago. There no signs of spots on the other 3 fish. Some Pulsing Xenia have died and are obviously no longer pulsing. No damage visible damage to any other corals. I am now debating whether to dose for "heavy infection" which includes one additional dosing (Days 1, 3, 5, 7, 10 and 13 instead of 1, 4, 7, 10 and 13).

Day 8

Dosed with Kick Ich (Day 3 of treatment) at 6:00 AM. No noticable changes from yesterday. I definitely believe the Kick Ich cause Xenia death. I am still soaking the food in Selcon and garlic juice. All fish are still feeding well. I feed 3X per day. The 1st feeding are Tropical Crisps; the 2nd feeding is Formula 2 pellets; and the 3rd feeding is a rotation of frozen food: Mysis Shrimp, Brine Shrip w/spirulina and Cyclopeeze. I feed at 8:00 PM, 10:00 PM and 11:30 PM. I am gone all day and a good part of the night.

Day 9

No news to report. Everthing seems the same as day 8.

Day 10

Dosed with Kick Ich (Day 5 of treatment) at 9:30 AM. At 6:00 PM I see that the remaining original Xenia are no longer pulsing but no withered. The recent split-off colonies are still pulsing. I did add some DKH buffer today along with some Colonize.

I haven't seen my fan worm come out in a few days. The Tang looks the same but is no longer hiding and is very active. It does not appear that it has difficulty breathing. No new spots on other fish; the Black Blenny appears to have the same spots on the pectoral fin.

Day 11

I still haven't seen the fan worm. The snail activity is moving much slower.

Day 12

Dosed with Kick Ich (Day 7 of treatment) at 6:00 AM. At 8:00 PM I see that the fan worm is definitely dead. No other changes in the fish; they are all feeding well.

Day 15

Dosed with Kick Ich (Day 10 of treatment) at 6:00 AM. At 8:00 PM I see that the Black Blenny has a few more Ich spots as well as the Tang. No other changes in the fish; they are all still feeding well. Most surviving Xenia are still not pulsing; however, the newest colonies directly below the metal halides are still pulsing.

Day 18

Dosed with Kick Ich (Day 13 of treatment) at 8:30 AM. At 11:00 PM I see that the Tang has the "rolled in salt" type apprearance on the head and face; the is one cyst on the eye. No other changes in the fish; they are all still feeding well. I lost a Mexican Turbo Snail today.

The Kick Ich is supposed to be a 15 day formula; however, the Tang appearance has gotton worse. I am now debating performing a 33% water change on day 16 starting over with a new Kick Ich cycle. Does anyone have any opinions on that?

Day 24

I performed a 29% water change and did not start a new cycle of Kick Ich. The Tang still has Ich spots. No other fish have spots and all fish are feeding well with food soaked in garlic juice and Selcon.

Loss - 1 Mexican Turbo Snail, 50% of Pulsing Xenia

Damage - Fan Worm is actually alive but is 2/3 smaller

Thanks

Matt

 

[cbrwheelieguy]

I have 75 gallon reef tank with fish and coral. I added a new fish last weekend and my Chevron Tang developed Ich spots three days ago. I have not performed any treatment yet and no other fish show any signs of Ich.

• I cannot transfer the fish out into a copper-treated tank
  
• I cannot go hypo salinity due to the corals
  
• I cannot raise the temperature due to the corals
  
• I want to treat using a "reef safe" Ich medication

Should I use Kick Ich or Ich X or do nothing?

Not sure if you fixed your problem yet but this is how I treated my reef with Ich and it really does work.....Buy a big container of minced garlic from the store, use about 1-2 teaspoons of the garlic juice only a day in the tank for a couple weeks. After you take a teaspoon of juice out, put the same amount of RO water back into the container that way you always have juice. I know it sounds weird but it actually works. Not sure but I think it masks the smell of the fish and parasites are basically blind I think...it may also help the fishy immune system....dont know why it works but it does....it is 100% reef safe and make your house smell like Itailian cooking. Once my Ich was gone it never came back...perhaps it masked the fish throughout the Ich lifecycle, I duno Im no expert but IT WORKED!!!! YAy!!! If everyone else could please not ridicule and tell me how Ich is like a bad relative that never ever leaves it would be much appreciated...LOL I am just trying to help from my own experience. GOOD LUCK!!!!

 

[TurboRobert]

I just read this entire thread do to the fact that I went on Vacation and everyone of my fish Died. The person taking care of it said that they got ich and then they all died one by one. I had a lot of $$ invested in these fish and now I am taking ich a little more seriously. Most of the time a fish or two would get signs of it for a day or two and then get over it. I guess I should just let my tank sit for a month or so with no fish? All of my corals are fine and all my water parameters are perfect. I did a 40% water change as well. I was going to go get a couple of fish to see what would happen but from what I am hearing I should just wait?

 

[FocusFin]

Sucks!

If there's anything positive that can come out of this, it's that you now have an opportunity to completely eradicate it and hopefully never let it back in your tank.

I think you need to wait longer than one month, possibly two to make sure it's gone but in the meantime you could go ahead and purchase a couple of fish and quarantine them so that when the times up you can go ahead and put them in the tank.

Check with MrTuskfish on exactly how he keeps Ich from getting in his tanks because there's no sense going through all of this just to end up back where you started.

Good luck.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I agree with FocusFin.
I'd leave the tank fishless for at least two months. There seems to be strains of ich that can stay dormant longer than anyone really knows. The way the CW on this issue is changing; I'm not 100% sure that you get a tank 100% ich-free (once its been infested), without a wait that would be unacceptable to most of us. However, if your fish got ich while you were away; ich must have been in your tank all along. (Or your helper did something really stupid). Assuming you don't have one of the mystery, super-strains of ich; you can keep it out of your DT and never go through this again. QT everything, always. I treat all new fish, prophetically, with copper and a de-wormer in QT. This is controversial; lots of people do this and lots don't. Hypo also works. If I hadn't been using copper for so long (15+ yrs); I probably would try Quinine Sulfate instead. It seems to have become the med of choice for a lot or the hobby's real experts. (Fenner, Goemans, et al.) Treating fish in QT, even if they show don't symptoms of parasites or not, is your decision. Do a lot of research (you have time) and decide. But using QT for everything just isn't an option, IMO. A QT does a lot more than just catch ich too, you'll end up with healthier fish---treated or not. Reading material on this subject is limitless. Just the RC site alone, contains everything you need to know. BTW, although way too many of us don't QT, most will learn to the hard way. I have never heard any reasonable answer not to.

 

[TurboRobert]

So just a question... Does ich only attract to fish? Can it live on snails, crabs, or corals?

 

[MrTuskfish]

Ich can only feed on fish; but anything wet can hold (and transfer) its various life stages.

 

[RiversideGator]

I'm happy to report that there are no more visible signs of Ich in the tank and had zero fish loss.

 

[Hoosier daddy]

I'm happy to report that there are no more visible signs of Ich in the tank and had zero fish loss.

So was it the Kich Ich or did you do another process?

 

[SPotter]

I have been using kick ich and i am on my second round of treating my tank. it seems to work initially but then the spots will come back. its had no effect on my corals which is a good thing.