Reef Lighting - Does anyone understand it?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15591012#post15591012 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Hookup
This leads me to conclude, if we want to maximize our coral growth, we should be driving "blue" MH bulbs as the main source, to deliver maxium intensity (PAR) to the corals throughout the tank, and even supplimenting that with additional light sources such as T5's that put out even more 460nm light (actinic lights).
I'm not convinced that the data supports MH as a better "grow light" than T5HO. An eight lamp T5HO unit, for example, can inundate a tank with light.

I agree that a bulb with most of its light production near 440 (visually, a "blue-er" light) is best for coral growth. If you were lighting the tank purely for growth, with little or no concern for appearance, the "ideal" lamp would not produce much red light at all. Realistically, though, most of us probably wouldn't care for the appearance of corals under purely growth-oriented lighting. Fine for a grow-out tank at a coral farm, maybe not so great for a living room display tank.
 
Yet it's what the market is driving too.

Greenbean - a clarification. Previously it'sbeen stated that that PAR is a straight photon count between 400 and 700 nm. However as there is a variation in the effectiveness of the absorbtion of the photons (see the graph I linked) it is the case that if I use just photons at 550 nm wavelengh then it is less usable than an equal stream of photons of 450nm. Thus it should be weighted and count for less , and this is what I thougt PAR referred to. Is there an accepted terminology for this?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15593893#post15593893 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KarlBob
I'm not convinced that the data supports MH as a better "grow light" than T5HO. An eight lamp T5HO unit, for example, can inundate a tank with light.

I agree that a bulb with most of its light production near 440 (visually, a "blue-er" light) is best for coral growth. If you were lighting the tank purely for growth, with little or no concern for appearance, the "ideal" lamp would not produce much red light at all. Realistically, though, most of us probably wouldn't care for the appearance of corals under purely growth-oriented lighting. Fine for a grow-out tank at a coral farm, maybe not so great for a living room display tank.

I should have left MH/T5 out of the statement as you are correct... if you have a T5 unit, then "most of your bulbs" should be in the 400-500nm rage to maximize growth.

And equally correct, I tried to be very specific, this would maximize growth. Coloration is another issue complete. Finding the intersect point would be a personal preference for sure. However if we could find a similar statement that said... using xxx type phtons or a mix of xxx/yyy/zzz at some proportion would maximize color... then it would give some grounding for making lighting decisions beyond trial and error.
 
I feel like I have all of this new knowledge and yet cannot lend it to making a "this is the optimum scenario for lighting a generic reef tank" statement.
You aren't alone. It's a very complicated subject and we don't have anywhere near enough information to make that sort of statement.

2) Corals like blue light in the 460nm range for photosynthesis better than most other wavelengths. If you're looking to maximize growth, focus your spectrum and maximize the intensity around this wavelength.
That's a jump I wouldn't make. There are a lot of processes to consider between the light coming from the bulb and getting usable sugar and there are trade offs and losses at each step.

First there's the production of the light at the bulb. A bluer bulb will generally put out less photons per watt of energy input than a redder bulb and as teewhy pointed out, blue bulbs often put out a lot of light that falls outside the PAR spectrum. And remember PAR matters a lot, so if you're comparing bulbs of equal wattage then the difference in PAR can have a big impact on growth even if the spectrum is good.

The next step is attenuation by the water. The red light gets dinged more here.

Then there's the absorption/ reflectance by the coral itself. The coral regulates how much and what color light even gets to the zoox and there is a huge variation in the type and amount of pigments expressed and their positions relative to the zoox. This is by far the biggest unknown quantity. The expression of these pigments is different for each individual coral and can be affected by the color and intensity of the light in ways we don't understand. Generally though, bluer light is what get's reflected or absorbed by the coral's pigment- i.e. it's not making it to the zoox.

Only after all of these other processes have had a hand in modifying the light does the activity spectrum of the zoox even come into play.

In the real-world, most people find that bluer bulbs don't give better growth, probably due in large part to the fact that they generally produce much less PAR.

3) Photosyntehtic saturation is bad. But it seems we do not have enough information to understand what approximate levels of PAR equate to photosynthesis saturation with any coral. This leads me to believe that in an effort to maximize coral growth, we could/should dump as much light (intensity/high PAR) as we can onto our corals until we observe an adverse effect that is attibutable to the intensity of light on the specific coral(s) we are observing. Additionlly if we want to maximize growth, we might as well use "the good stuff" and provide light in and around the 460nm spectrum (blue lite = the good stuff) .
No, saturation is good. That means the coral is at its maximum rate of photosynthesis and adding more light won't produce more food for the coral. Exceeding saturation is bad. We should NOT be dumping as much light on corals as possible because many of them would be past saturation and unless the damage is severe it might now always be apparent.

Recently there has been a trend among reefers, mainly among "SPS" keepers with high lighting to reduce their photoperiods. They had good growth before but noticed that they get better growth with a shorter photoperiod. Since we know that photosynthesis isn't duration dependent, that suggests that their intensity was so high that the corals were photoinhibited and they were getting damage accumulating throughout the day. It was minor enough that it could be repaired at night so there was no apparent damage, but the excess energy required to deal with the damage was slowing growth- which only became apparent when they reduced the damage being done.

However as there is a variation in the effectiveness of the absorbtion of the photons (see the graph I linked) it is the case that if I use just photons at 550 nm wavelengh then it is less usable than an equal stream of photons of 450nm. Thus it should be weighted and count for less , and this is what I thougt PAR referred to. Is there an accepted terminology for this?
This is basically what is measured by PUR. While PUR readings are nice, it's very rarely used in practice. Actually making the measurements is complicated and takes specialized equipment, and generally it's just unnecessary. Usually PAR is good enough, and it's very easy to measure which is why it's much more widely used.
 
So in response to the opening question: "Does anyone understand reef lighting?", the answer seems to be: "Not completely". A few people, like Sanjay Joshi, have a few more clues than the rest of us, but can anyone say "These are the characteristics of the ideal lighting setup for your tank"? No, I don't think so.
 
Why did I have to read this just before I buy bulbs?

SPS Tank, two 250 Watt MH, two 54 Watt T5's...what do I go with?
 
I don't now if this means anything but the reefs I have visited didn't start to look "blue" until I was below 60 feet and probably more like 80.
 
but no scientific information on specific corals to determine exact PUR values, and each coral is different.

This pretty much sums it up for me, yet everyone will debate par, kelvin, ect. without having a clue of individual coral needs. People have proven to grow corals under every combination of bulbs available to a reefer.

On top of that there are thousands of varaibles in play other than the light bulb that affect coral growth.

No reason to make this so complicated.

My experiences have taught me that a good reflector is more important than the actual bulb choice & you need a lot less light in par & duration than most experts tell you.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15601310#post15601310 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Big E
This pretty much sums it up for me, yet everyone will debate par, kelvin, ect. without having a clue of individual coral needs. .

The article above, does take a specific coral, and a specific ZOOX and run tests with lighting against zoox reproduction as a baseline test for what light spectrum(s) work better than others.

1 coral out of the ocean is hardly a "hard fast rule" I admit, but its a start :)

If all you wanted to keep was A. Euphyllia glabrescens and we beleived that reproduction of the symbiant zoox was a sign of health & growth, then the report has the lights for you. We just need to repeat that experiement for every coral in the hobby! Simple right! ;)
 
The article above, does take a specific coral, and a specific ZOOX and run tests with lighting against zoox reproduction as a baseline test for what light spectrum(s) work better than others.

No, it only looks at isolated zoox growing in culture. The coral isn't even in the picture and that's where the real mystery lies.

If all you wanted to keep was A. Euphyllia glabrescens and we beleived that reproduction of the symbiant zoox was a sign of health & growth, then the report has the lights for you.
No, it suggests a light for use with clade B zoox to induce mitosis. Cell division may or may not be an indicator of health. Exposure to cyanide also induces division in zoox.

Also, the zoox are an entirely separate entity from the coral. They don't come together as a package. You can have the same species of coral hosting different clades of zoox, so even if the coral itself was included in the experiment, you couldn't extrapolate the results to include all members of the same species.

We just need to repeat that experiement for every coral in the hobby! Simple right!
Not just every species of coral, every individual coral.
 
Greenbean, your statements are, as always, accurate, however the relationship between what the study analyzed and coral health/growth is not a difficult leap to take, for me.

Is it a leap? It sure is.

But if we do not start with some educated leaps of faith, then we are just running around guessing and hoping. Or sitting in a corner scared to do anything because we have no hard facts.

I'm not suggesting that this study, or the papers it refered to are conclusive by any means. They simply are not. What I am suggesting is that if we have two schools of thought to use for decision making and one is based upon uncontrolled experiements and hear-say from internet forums/aquarium clubs/etc, and the other from an actual study that is remotely related to coral health & growth, I would tend towards the study. It's a personal preference, some would rather say, "it's worked for 1000's of reefers so far, why change?".

Though I do not think we are disagreeing, I just do not want to see the actual report completely dismissed as irrelivant to the subject at hand. Maybe I did position it too strongly so I'm glad we cleard up the confusion.

Also, I recently found another report, (probably now making me your worste nightmare), where several different species of coral were fragg'ed and grown out in "identical" (as much as possible) conditions under 3 different types of lighting. This study was trying to determine which spectrum of lighting gave the best (read brightest) color, which is too bad. If they had weighted the frags at the begining and then at the end, they would have had a good approximation for growth as well as color. By observation of their photos posted, in most (60%) cases the 20k bulb appeard to have better growth, however there were some cases where the coral growth was significantly better under the 10k, appearting to have grown 2x the amount, and others where there were virutally no differences.

Whilel there just isn't enough information to many any concrete statements, but there are some good references to pick a starting point for our own lighting setups.
 
Hookup, could you post a link to the "color under 3 different lights" article?

Phillybean, go with what looks good to you. Unless your tank is absolutely huge, 2x250W MH and 2x54W T5HO should produce plenty of light. If the MHs have decent reflectors, and the T5HOs have individual reflectors (or a W-shaped semi-individual reflector) your corals should get plenty of light. If you like, you can experiment with different photoperiods, and find your own best growth conditions.
 
Hookup, you'll notice though that even Dana Riddle and Sanjay Joshi, two of the brightest minds in aquarium lighting (pun intended) don't make specific recommendations about which bulbs or spectra to use. A large factor in that is that for all the we do know, we don't know the answers to the most important questions. We only have a few scattered studies with very limited applicability and sometimes ambiguous results, so it's not appropriate to draw broad conclusions from them. Anyone trying to make bulb choices based on them and expecting specific results is likely to be disappointed.

Given the choice between anecdote from hobbyists and controlled tests, I would go with the controlled test as well, but you have to compare apples to apples. Hobbyists fragging and growing corals is not a fair comparison to growing zoox in a petri dish. There are lots of problems in applying in vitro results to in vivo situations when there are few studies to provide context.

While in theory, bluer light should give better growth there are lots of factors that make that theory difficult to apply to a real aquarium. In practice, most hobbyists have found that they actually get better growth from redder lights. As Yogi Berra said, "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is."
 
Like a junk yard dog with a bone, I could not let this topic drop... I've been riding around in my car, at the house and so on mulling over the information gathered so far trying desperately to make better connections than really exist.

The other day on the way into work, it actually hit me... just because Zoox reproduce better with blue light (from the study), it could mean the opposite for photosynthesis... possibly the ETC shuts down during reproduction to the point that corals will actually suffer due to a lack of sugars being produced...

I want there to be a better answer, I really do, but you've said it eloquently, and quite correctly. We do not know enough at this point for anything other than random luck and disappointment.

Thanks for the discussion and education at any rate... I now know a bunch more about photons, spectrums, lighting, corals, zoox, photosynthesis than I did at the begining of this thread, and that's worth quite a bit to me.

Tim
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15631750#post15631750 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Hookup
I want there to be a better answer, I really do, but you've said it eloquently, and quite correctly. We do not know enough at this point for anything other than random luck and disappointment.
Well, we know a little more than that. We know better than to run T12NO lamps over SPS. We know that we can't wait until a lamp burns itself out before replacing it. We know for a fact that several available lighting technologies can keep coral alive.

Can we tell someone exactly what lights to install over a particular tank? No, but we can point out several good options. For now, I think that will have to do.
 

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