Reef tank crash help!

[jimmaki]

I have a 100 gallon reef tank that appears to be crashing but I cannot figure out why. All water parameters look good. The tank is well established.

What appear to be brown algae or diatoms started growing on the sand bottom. I don't have a test kit for silicates. The LaMotte Nitrate test showed between 1-5ppm no3. I tried a 20% water change using Red Sea salt and RO/DI water. More brown algae continued to grow on the sand.

I tried a product called AZ-NO3 (absolute zero nitrate). Nitrates did come down to zero within a week. Phosphates were also zero. But the polyps on some corals started to stay shut for days. I also noticed the red star which I had had for 6 years, coming out during the day and half the length of his legs were missing. I tested again for Nitrates and it and the rest of the water parameters were good.

All the fish seem fine, a yellow tang, hippo tang, two perculas and some green chomis.

I do not see any pods or other bethnic life in the sand or on the rocks anymore, even coming out and checking with a flashlight at night.

The water has a brownish hue and 100 pounds of live rock seems to becoming covered in a layer of detritus. I can "blow" it off with a syringe and it reappears in a couple days. The foam fractionator is pulling a lot gunk. I've stopped feeding the fish for a few days.

I tried another 20% water change and while there is some improvement, the coral polyps are still not fully extending. Only about half come out at all.

My only two guesses at this point are that the AZ-NO3 caused the problem or something died and released a poison I can't test for, but I dont' know what the something might be since I have never had any sea slugs or inverts that I'm aware of that release poisons when they die.

I'm totally stumped about the cause, or what the cure should be. I'm thinking of a 50% water change and sucking out half the sand bed when I do. I'm afraid of doing nothing and incremental small water changes don't seem to be helping fast enough to save what's left of the corals.

This reef has been up and running successfully for over ten years so I am totally stumped why it went south so quickly. Any help would be appreciated. I don't know how long the corals can survive this way.

 

[inwha]

I dont have a clue what it could be. I did however read the tank of month thread and he talks about sand beds crashing after extended periods of time. Might be worth reading the thread and looking into but he specifically talks about nitrates rising etc

 

[planedoc]

If it a sand be issue it would show in water tests. I would say contamination. I would do couple 40 to 50 % water changes. That would get rid of 70% of water.

 

[Sheol]

I would say that chemical you used is the culprit, but unless you can trace an exact timeline I cannot say with 100% certainty. My old Reef crashed because of a faulty heater & a dying 'shroom that poisoned the entire tank.

Sincerely,
Matthew

 

[greech]

Do you always use RO/DI or did/do you use tap water? Significant diatoms (if that is what they are) in a 10 year old tank kinda suggests your source water was not being teated sufficiently. I'm not saying silica is causing the problem but it may be an indicator that something else broke through (or was in your tap). Not familiar with AZ-NO3 but since nutrients don't seem to have been issue to start with (NO3 only 5ppm), the sudden shift or stripping of nutrients should not have had this affect.

If you suspect a contaminant, you may want to run some PolyFilter pad.

 

[capschamp]

Time for new lights? Perhaps they are losing their spectrum (if thats the right term)?

 

[greech]

Time for new lights? Perhaps they are losing their spectrum (if thats the right term)?

Good point. Or did you recently get new bulbs or upgrade lighting?

 

[jimmaki]

I dont have a clue what it could be. I did however read the tank of month thread and he talks about sand beds crashing after extended periods of time. Might be worth reading the thread and looking into but he specifically talks about nitrates rising etc

I have also heard that sand beds can go bad after extended periods of time. I don't deep clean mine to keep the anerobic layer from becoming oxygenated. Not sure yet if that's a good or bad idea. What sand I did siphon out was loaded with detritus.

What's puzzling is that if the sand bed "crashed" ... I'd expect to see nitrates going up significantly. They didn't. I even took water samples to two LFS and had them test it and they got all the same reading I did. Both nitrates, nitrites and ammonia as well were undetectable.

I can't seem to find the thread you are referring to about the crashed sand bed. Can you link or point me in the right direction?

 

[jimmaki]

If it a sand be issue it would show in water tests. I would say contamination. I would do couple 40 to 50 % water changes. That would get rid of 70% of water.

I made up a new 50 gal batch and plan to do a 50% water change today. I took out a third of the sand the last water change two days ago and so far no increase in nitrates so maybe the live rock is taking care of the nitates. I'm going to take out another 1/3 of the sand bed this water change. Hope the fish can take it.

 

[jimmaki]

One of the victims (or maybe the cause) was a large mushroom. This is the first I've heard they can poison a tank. It came in on live rock and was the size of a dime ... over time it grew to abou 4-1/2" in diameter. It was green with bubble shaped polyps. Sorry, don't know the name of it. I can't think of anything that would have killed it other than whatever it is killed all the other inverts. Can you point me to info on shrumes the give off poison when they die?

 

[jimmaki]

I've used a Spectrapure 5 stage RO/DI since day one for all make up water and water changes. Use good quality salt and let it mix and aerate for a full day before using it. Never use tap water.

I've been running carbon but I'll also pick up some poly pads. Thanks.

 

[jimmaki]

Time for new lights? Perhaps they are losing their spectrum (if thats the right term)?

Yes, I changed light bulbs 6 months ago. They are on about 10 hours a day (8 during the winter) and I change them out every 9 mos to a year.

 

[FINGAZZ]

I have also heard that sand beds can go bad after extended periods of time. I don't deep clean mine to keep the anerobic layer from becoming oxygenated. Not sure yet if that's a good or bad idea. What sand I did siphon out was loaded with detritus.

What's puzzling is that if the sand bed "crashed" ... I'd expect to see nitrates going up significantly. They didn't. I even took water samples to two LFS and had them test it and they got all the same reading I did. Both nitrates, nitrites and ammonia as well were undetectable.

I can't seem to find the thread you are referring to about the crashed sand bed. Can you link or point me in the right direction?

diamond goby would take care of the bed.i have one in my reef/fish tank and he goess to town.sorry about the crash but if it happened after you put the chemical in it then i would say thats what caused it.

 

[inwha]

I have also heard that sand beds can go bad after extended periods of time. I don't deep clean mine to keep the anerobic layer from becoming oxygenated. Not sure yet if that's a good or bad idea. What sand I did siphon out was loaded with detritus.

What's puzzling is that if the sand bed "crashed" ... I'd expect to see nitrates going up significantly. They didn't. I even took water samples to two LFS and had them test it and they got all the same reading I did. Both nitrates, nitrites and ammonia as well were undetectable.

I can't seem to find the thread you are referring to about the crashed sand bed. Can you link or point me in the right direction?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2199793

 

[LAKEM0NSTER]

jimmaki, Have you tried testing the water from your RO/DI system?? Could be time to change filters...?

**About the sandbeds crashing or going bad,,, I think what happened was that the sandbed in the TOTM had solidified after a couple years... I guess the cause was the use of a calcium reactor.

 

[coralsnaked]

The best defense is always water changes. And sometimes big problems call for big water changes with matching pH and temp of course, and keep doing them. And increasing carbon and adding purigen to export what ever is in the water. Work on the water! I would not mess with an established sandbed. The chances it crashed or next to none if you were not messing around with it. And when you remove sand from an established tank, never remove more than one inch at a time and it is also best to wait for one week between reductions. The water changes is what is best for the corals, other than that making only one other change at a time for experiemntation to a solution. If you do not know the cause then only make a single change at a time. Think about the stress you put on the tank when you make multiple large changes at one time. Dosing, removing the sandbed (which is a huge filtration change), water changes with pH and temp. These big stressors can make your problem bigger not better especially if they are missing the target. You need to EXPORT the problem thru better filtration not less, and utilize your water changes and increased media exportation IE increased carbon, Purigen and Phosguard. Beleive me if you have Diatoms or othe ralgea you do have Nitrates nad Phosphates in the water. They may be sucking them up faster than you can test for it. and since you didn't mention Nitrites or Ammonia specifically I must assume you tested for these multiple times, right? Because increased levels of either of these sounds like what your problem may be, especially if you somehow triggered a mini reycle like new tank syndrom by messing with the N cycle thru chemical means.. It would be better to vacummn the brown algea and detritus during the water changes than to remove the sand bed.

Lastly about the AZNO3 it works much like Vodka dosing thru a bit of a different process, enzymes over carbohydrates. But it does cause your skimmer to dramatically increase the exportation of Iodine, and dosing of iodine may be needed. Also your ORP may be reduced and increased oxygenation may also be required. Be sure to keep all mechanical filtration clean because basically this products causes a bacterial bloom that your skimming and filtration is supposed to harvest. So improved filtration is required for proper harvesting. If your system is not prepared then the bacteial bloom will cloud water and cause unaccumulated amount of potential cloudiness in your tank which can settle out, this depends on the amount of the original bacterium the new bacterium is trying to digest (enzyme). It gets a little complicated on how it works but basically you are adding one bacterium to consume another and the result is a lot of needed exportation which is why I mention additional skimming, more carbon and the addition of Purigen.

Work on this and leave the natural filtration alone. Every action has a reaction. Now deal with the reaction thru good tank mangement, not knee jerk reactions.

Happy reefing is always a challenge, isn't this why we do it.

 

[jimmaki]

Thanks for your reply ... I'm trying not to kneejerk react although nothing I've tried so far seems to be helping but I'm not giving up.

I removed only about 1/3 of the sandbed, but mostly only from the top 1" .... I did not get very deep. Most of the sand was removed from the front of the tank where it is not very deep (2"). Being the lowest point it had the most accumulation of detritus. Towards the middle and rear of the tank the sand gets deeper (up to 4"=5") and in that area I only siphoned off the very surface, and where the sand is deepest under the live rock I tried not to disturb it too much so I didn't oxygenate the anoxic lower layer. I'm checking for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate as I go along.

I am changing the filter pads several times a day and have put in both a poly pad and a carbon pad. I also tossed in a couple Chemipure bags.

I'm going to continue just making water changes and keeping the filters and skimmer clean. The water is still cloudy, but the brown tinge seems to be slowly turning more to a white cloudy look as the filter and skimmer take out the solids. The corals that are still alive are fluffing off a mucus of some kind and only about 5% of the polys on the soft corals are coming out. The rest stay closed. So far the fish are still swimming and pecking at the rocks (are feeling well enough to eat).

Unfortunately most of the inverts are dead and no sign of life in the sand (ie,no more tube worms, pods, snails, etc.) <sigh>

 

[jimmaki]

jimmaki, Have you tried testing the water from your RO/DI system?? Could be time to change filters...?

**About the sandbeds crashing or going bad,,, I think what happened was that the sandbed in the TOTM had solidified after a couple years... I guess the cause was the use of a calcium reactor.

Yes, the Spectrapure came with two buit-in test units that tell when it's time to change filters. One pre and one post the DI filters.

I don't use a calcium reactor. I checked and my sandbed isn't solidified. I though maybe it might be generating toxins like sulfur but there's no rotten egg smell. Up until a week ago, the sand be was very "alive" with tube worms, snails, and pods. They're all dead now ... at least I have seen any move. <sigh>

 

[jimmaki]

jimmaki, Have you tried testing the water from your RO/DI system?? Could be time to change filters...?

**About the sandbeds crashing or going bad,,, I think what happened was that the sandbed in the TOTM had solidified after a couple years... I guess the cause was the use of a calcium reactor.

jimmaki, Have you tried testing the water from your RO/DI system?? Could be time to change filters...?

**About the sandbeds crashing or going bad,,, I think what happened was that the sandbed in the TOTM had solidified after a couple years... I guess the cause was the use of a calcium reactor.

Yes, the Spectrapure came with two buit-in test units that tell when it's time to change filters. One pre and one post the DI filters.

I don't use a calcium reactor. I checked and my sandbed isn't solidified. I though maybe it might be generating toxins like sulfur but there's no rotten egg smell. Up until a week ago, the sand be was very "alive" with tube worms, snails, and pods. They're all dead now ... at least I have seen any move. <sigh>

 

[jimmaki]

diamond goby would take care of the bed.i have one in my reef/fish tank and he goess to town.sorry about the crash but if it happened after you put the chemical in it then i would say thats what caused it.

I had two diamond gobies for quite a while until I accidentally left the cover open one night. Found them both on the floor the next morning. Didn't have the heart to replace them in case I made the same mistake. The are jumpers!

I don't pretend to know exactly how AZNO3 works but I can't say for certain whether or not it caused the crash, and maybe that's my downfall. I probably shouldn't have put something in the tank that I didn't exactly understand how it worked and what side effects it could have. I did research it on the Internet and more users than not claimed to have good luck with it. Didn't see one report of it killing off all the inverts.