Reforming the worst of our trade;an agenda

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6424779#post6424779 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jolt26
This is from Sir Jaime Baquero. Yes, cheap, variety, ASAP! Things you can only get here in the Phils.

"The caring consumers...including you guys should not overestimate your tiny numbers."

almost a million cosumers in the US alone? that is not TINY. millions of fishes are collected from our reefs yearly.

www.nmfs.noaa.gov/habitat/ead/Readi...reefspecies.pdf [/B]

I find it interesting that the million consumers in the US figure was used back in 1999. A recent survey 2005 by the American Pet Product Manufacturing Association (APPMA) found there are currently 800,000 households keeping marine fish. Borneman's recent article Coralmania claims the industry has grow 30% a year since 1999. I'm confused. :confused:
 
surveys have "margin of errors." given two conflicting surveys, i'd go for the median, which is 900,000. still very huge, right? being an LFS owner, you think this is true, profit-wise?
 
If you divide 900,000.00 by 3,000 estimated number of stores that sell marine, that equals an average of 300 customers each. I guess it depends on how many of your 300 are doing much stocking. In smaller towns like ours that 300 customer figure is a reach. I think the 800,000 may be pretty close. It is a sizable market, but discount internet and garage operations have driven profit margins quite low, considering overhead and loses. There is also the big box factor. I can assure you it ain't the goldmine for most, that some would lead you to believe. Others may be doing quite well. For me it's kind of hard to want to sell as much as I possibly can considering all the truth I know.
Mitch
 
How can the consumer tell the difference between ethically caught fish and those that are done so unethically? I have several tank raised fish in my aquarium but I also have two fish that were not. I, as a consumer, have absolutley no way of knowing how those two fish were collected. I can only rely on my LFS owner to purchase from ethical wholesalers but how does he REALLY know how they were collected? I feel that it is the local governments responsibility to control collection practices otherwise, no one really knows what methods were used.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6424896#post6424896 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cortez marine
The CARING consumers...including you guys should not overestimate your tiny numbers.
I said the CARING consumers numbers were tiny!
This is a very old fight....25 years or so actually and consumers have never cared enough to effect changes in their retailers buying patterns.
Steve

Amen to that Steve,
I see it over and over. NOONE wants to pay for ethicly caught fish. They want cheap fish.

What's that old saying, "You get what you pay for.":rolleyes: and since everyone wants cheap well... you get dieing fish.

I prefer this one, "Say what mean and Mean what you say!" There's a mantra for the NGO's. We'll never llive to see the day, tho.
 
What people on here say about the average US fish buyer is true. They could careless about quality. If it's cheap, well then they can buy 3 or 4 until one lives, if it expensive, then it's just not worth the risk. And as for the NGOs, changind things in the US would take an NGO far bigger than our hobby could muster, the reason for this is simple, even if they advertise in all of the aquarium related magazines, stating what needs to be done and why, I would bet that MAYBE 5 of our stores customers would see it and of them I would be surprised if one even cared. Without GOVERMENTS on both sides of the Pacific working together to do something I don't see anything changing. Granted I live in a somewhat redneck little college town so it might not be the best group of people the draw a conclusion from, but thats what I see. And to be honest, the whole working at a LFS store thing has somewhat turned me against the hobby as a whole. I don't think you could get private comanies to all boycott certain countries that import fish, but you might convince The Hawiian Rep., ED Case to do something like it. He wants to make wild caught fish illegal until the go through species by species and make them legal again. While I don't agree with that, I might like to see certain countries banned possibly.
 
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Or...existing groups with new leadership.
The MAC organization has squandered as much money as goodwill on this thing while reefs continued to decline.
Like any group, its only as good as its members and especially its leadership.
A new coach [director] is sorely needed like any football team that never wins.
Steve
 
In the case of the Philippines and Indonesia there are enough proofs to conclude that the central governments are not willing neither committed to tackle the problems related to the collection of marine ornamentals. This trade is responsible "in part" for coral reef deterioration in those countries. Without leadership from the central governments nothing is going to happen, the problem is going to get worse and radical groups are going to act to fix the problem the hard way.

We have seen how issolated efforts from NGOs in the last two decades haven't been effective. The transfert of technology has been made, hundreds of collectors have been trained to use nets instead of cyanide. However, the solution is more complex than simply net training.

It is an environmental problem that requires a social and economic approach.... is here where the leadership from central governments is a must.

Central governments must protect their natural resources by regulating and enforcing laws.. It is not NGOs responsibility, NGOs are there just to help.

Jaime
 
So...if hundreds of collectors have been trained to use nets instead of cyanide....then the coral killing is less.

If all of them were trained well, then still less coral would be killed and the emergency diminishes.
Then...one could seek social justice and economic improvements without being tethered to the coral killing issues as is the case today.
However...it is the cyanide issue that gives the alarm and the PR punch that raises the cash for these groups to squander.
They fail the training issues and move on to others they are more comfortable with.
The idea of waiting for central governments to move appropriately on any serious issues is the same as giving up.
If you've given up...then whats the point?
Steve
This can be solved by honest commercial trainings partnered with honest NGOs.
Integrity and sincerity has always been the crux of the issue.
The faking of reform while obsessing over grant money, turf and power has ruined the real potential set in motion years ago by more honest players.
Lead, follow or get out of the way.
Steve
 
I have not doubts that hundreds of collectors were well trained. As I have said before, and in many occasions, you did a good job while in the Ph (many years ago). Filipino collectors are the best in the world, they have been training collectors not only in the Philippines but also in other developing countries. However, the industry in the Philippines has not recompensed their willingness and commitment to use environmentally friendly methods when collecting fish. Fish collectors in the Philippines have been sending clear signs to the industry, but this industry has not reacted.

To the lack of willingness and commitment of the central governments in Ph and In, we have to add the lack of willingness and commitment of the industry itself. The demand from hobbyists and retailers has been the same, they're looking for cheap fish. the Ph and Ind are supplying the industry with at least 65%-70% of those cheap fish. Issues as fish quality and collection methods haven't been a priority, neither has been a priority the wellbeing of poor fish collectors, meanwhile the coral reefs are being overexploited by collectors who have to collect as many fish as possible to satisfy their families needs. They do have to travel farther away from their homes looking for new grounds where they could find fish. They go away from their families for extended periods of time, this, has negative consequences on the social structure of the communities.

Economic incentives to collectors by the industry along with small scale social programs implemented by the central goverments in the Ph and In are essential to solve this environmental problem.

Without willingness and commitment from both sides(industry and central governments) the status quo will prevail with serious consequences for the coral reefs.


I have had the opportunity to work with the different levels of the trade from the collector to the aquarium hobbyists in North America, more specifically in Canada. I was involved during many years working with a Canadian NGO helping to find solutions to the cyanide problem in the Philippines. I have not been in Indonesia, but according to people that have been there and know the situation in both countries, they have stated that the cyanide problem, handling and holding in Indonesia are worse.

Since the early 80's issues as collection, handling and holding as well as unsuitability of some species has been denounced... but the industry has done "almost" nothing. We are still talking about cyanide use which is being used not only in the Ph and In but also in other developing countries where regulation and law enforcement do not exist. We also know that very little has been done to tackle handling, holding at community level (majority of collection communities), and we see that the industry is offering to hobbyists fish that do not survive in captivity.

More than 25 years hopping that things are going to change. Many conferences, speakers, and "experts" talking about issues related to the industry and its impact on coral reefs... but little change.

In the Philippines fish collectors are poorer than they were 25 years ago and coral reefs are in worse shape than then. Fishing grounds have been overexploited and some species are not found were once abundant.

Personally, I do not think that the status quo is an option. I'd rather to see something radical happening in the Philippines and Indonesia.
 
my 2 ceniti

my 2 ceniti

As 1 of only 4 exporters of marine fish from Tonga I feel that I should wade in. All Tongan fish are net-caught and my company has even brought in experts to train our divers in non-destructive catching techniques. All the fish Bolt mentioned as available only from the Phillipines are available here and although we pay our divers on salary, the export price is the same or less. I have had many conversations with wholesalers who far prefer our fish to PI fish due to the survivability factor. This is ensured by attention to the livestock from the time of catching, decompression, holding systems, feeding (yes, we do!), packing and shipping. Particuliarly in Europe, Phillipine fish are gaining a very poor reputation for survivability, and given the export price and high freight cost to Europe, many have stopped buying from the Phillipines.
The market we can't compete against however is the massive sales of cheap damsels from the Phillipines to the US. But, we don't care and simply offer higher quality fish to those that care to buy them. Also, the 5 export permit holders here (one does inverts only) have formed an association to help each other and assist the Govt. in forming laws and regulations for our industry. While it's not a regulatory agency or a replacement for one, it does keep the global reputation for Tongan products high just by peer pressure. As far as how to help the Phillipines, I'm not sure, but I know they continue to lose market share, maybe not in the US, but elsewhere.
One difference is that the Govt. here seems to take their responsibility to provide protection for marine resources fairly seriously and that could be the key difference.
More of my insane ramblings on the subject are here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/CAHomepage.htm
Thx-Jim
 
bookfish,

Thanks for sharing your business experience. I am glad to know that you guys are doing things right and as consequence mortality rates are low. Seems that fishefolks in Tonga get a better benefit form the trade than the folks in Ph.

Almost nothing is positive from this trade in the Philippines. It is a real mess, fish collectors are poorer, fish populations are depleted, coral reefs have been damage because the use of cyanide, mortality rates of collected fish are high and as consequence more pressure is put on coral reefs to collect more and more fish.

No doubt the willingness and commitment of Tonga's government is capital to protect and manage the coral reefs.

I agree, exporters in the Philippines are lossing market share, meaning that collectors are getting less for their fish and have to collect more and more to satisfy their basic needs. This has serious consequences on the coral reefs and fish populations.

The industry in North America and everywhere else "should" have the moral responsibility to stop this non sense.

Best regards

Jaime
 
keeping Tonga crowbar free

keeping Tonga crowbar free

Jim wrote;
"All Tongan fish are net-caught and my company has even brought in experts to train our divers in non-destructive catching techniques."

Why thanks for the mention Jim.
Working with the guys there was great and both Tongan divers and Filipino imports sure can put together a ton of fish in a hurry with only nets.
My only residual concern is that they ;
1] Continue to disdain the use of crowbars [ a long and nasty habit ] to collect fish with, especially flame hawks...
2] continue to decompress the fishes, especially pictilis anthias, starkii damsels and genicanthus angels.

If they are supported and followed up on ...these guys are the best!
It was joy to work with them and I hope the lessons stick!
Sincerely, Steve
 
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