Refreshing the DSB

[meschaefer]

I don't want to start a flame war, or debate regarding the use a DSB versus anyother setupi whether it be barebottom, rubble, shallow DSB.

Assuming arguendo (that is for the purposes of this post) that a DSB or portion thereof needs to be replaced on a periodic basis to avoid "old tank syndrom" or to remove any materials that may have accumulated in it...

IS there a method to reycylce the sand, by washing it, rinsing it or something else.


I was thinking that a small amount of sand could be placed in a five gallon bucket, say fill the bucket 1/4 with sand. Then add some tank water from a water change. Stir up the sand in the bucket, and pour off the water. Repeat as necessary.

My thinking is that you will cause detrius, sulfur, and other "undesirables" to suspend in the water colum of the bucket and then be poured off, leaving you with clean (or at least cleaner) sand.

Any thoughts....different ideas...etc...etc...
... go ahead rip me a new one.


Matt:eek2:

 

[3D-Reef]

meschaefer
Washing sand will remove the "undesirables" all except po4 (phosphate). Which binds with the sand chemically,and that can cause problems later with hair alge.
Clay

 

[CaptiveReef]

DSB

DSB

The only thing I would do to a DSB, would be to use a gravel vac and hit the bed in random areas. You are looking to freshen up the bed by removing any waste, you don't have to remove the sand to do this.
This way you can keep the sand bed clean, but not destroy all the helpful bacteria that handle Nitrate, and disrupt the whole tank. I know Steve Weast http://oregonreef.com/ cleans his sand on a regular basis, any replaces the sand as needed.

CaptiveReef

 

[meschaefer]

"Washing sand will remove the "undesirables" all except po4 (phosphate). Which binds with the sand chemically,and that can cause problems later with hair alge."

If the phosphate has chemically bonded with the substrate how does it become available for the the hair alge?

I am not worried about having to remove the sandbed. The whole tank is being broken down, and moved into a new tank.

 

[meschaefer]

sorry hit "submit reply by accident"

I don't normally clean my sandbed, or disturbe it much at all. I have had the bed estabished for about 5 years. The tank has been moved twice in that period. I have never replaced the sand, but I have added a couple of pounds of live sand on occasion to re-establish some diversity.

As i need to remove all of the old sand, I was planning on replacing about half of it, based upon the idea that the bed becomes a nurtrient sink (or so some say.

Assuming that it becomes a nutrient sink (for the sake of argument), would rinsing the sand as I stated help avoid "old tank syndrome"

If phosphate is going to bind to the sand, how is it going to become available to hair alge at a later time?

 

[Trigeek]

I had a DSB for 4 years before we moved. I "rinsed" the sand before setting up the tank again using some patio screening as a strainer. It was a bit cloudy during the rinse but never had any problems with PO3 or nitrate (was 5 inches and I replenished the fauna about 2x per year, kept a relatively low bioload) in the water column. When I set the tank back up, I re-seeded the sand. I didn't notice a cycle, but expected one so I kept the fish in a seperate 20g tank for a week until I felt comfortable that no ammonia was sitting in the water column. I had that bed for another year and am now awaiting to add everything into a new 90g. I will "rinse" again and then add more (going for about 6inches in the display). I'll again keep everything in a seperate tank until I feel comfortable that a cycle has passed or isn't going to occur. Just my experience with rinsing a DSB. Hope that helps!

Pete

 

[jmcmahon66]

I planned on reusing my DSB when I moved, and after seeing the amount of waste in it, I decided it was too much of a PITA to rinse and reuse. If you are doing a new tank, I would feel most comfortable with getting new sand, and seeding it with a small portion of your existing sand. If you do rinse and reuse it, a lower pH bath may release any phosphates that are bound to the sand. Maybe the effluent from a calcium reactor could be used as a soak/rinse?

 

[The_Nexis_One]

PO4 becomes bioavailable by pH fluctuations.

John.

 

[meschaefer]

One of the things that I have been considering is replacing about 1/2 to 2/3 of the sand bed.

As indicated my current sand bed has been established for about five years, with occasional additions of live sand for biodiversity. As I have a nice population of various fauna in my bed, I didn't want to replace all of it or even just seed a new bed with some of the old sand.

I have yet to make a final decision on how I am going to proceed, but will probably end up with DSB again. If Po4 binds to the sand bed and will relase into the system with fulctuations of ph, perhaps I am better off replacing more of it then less. It does seem that "washing" or "rinsing" the bed will not take care of this issue.

 

[trippyl]

Stir the bed, suck out some of the sand, suck out lots of the muck that comes out when you stir, you can recharge a DSB, it is possible. Just keep working on it each time you do a water change and you will notice improvements over time.

 

[The_Nexis_One]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6943880#post6943880 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by trippyl
Stir the bed, suck out some of the sand, suck out lots of the muck that comes out when you stir...

not on your life....at least not in my DSB/system

There are defined zones of bacteria, mixing 1", 2", 3" more (depth) of the DSB will cause those bacterial colonies to be disrupted e.g. mass DEATH in the stired section. This will cause ammonia spikes, etc down the N cycle line until NO3 is raised.

Additionally, let's assume that the reason for the 'refresh' is warranted and his DSB has a sulfide build-up, or other issue, etc. this will be released if it is disturbed by stiring. Even if he doesn't have a problem now (healthy tank probably wont IMHO) stiring it would push detritis/bacteria into lower areas of the DSB at an artificial rate and could cause such a toxic problem.

If you are going to remove it, do a small section at a time, using acrylic or other divider to section off the area you entend on removing, then vac the entire section down to the glass and replace with new sand. Fauna/bacteria will recolonies their layer by horizontal expansion.

In regard to:
"It does seem that "washing" or "rinsing" the bed will not take care of this issue."

Rinsing in tap water may very well provide enough pH swing of it's own (tap is around 7 if memory serves) to disolve the PO4 and allow it to be carried away - Likewise, adding a little vinegar to the wash water should pull the PO4 off IMHO.

Just don't leave the sand in there long otherwise you'll end up with milk and ... no more sand

$0.02 worth.

John.

 

[mille239]

I agree with meschaefer and trippyl; when I ran a DSB, I would siphon out a little sand every time I did a water change. not much, but some, and would replace it after a while with new sand, so any bound phosphates would not be re-entered into the system. I would estimate that over time about 1/4 to 1/3 of te sand bed would be replaced in a given year.
I am sure others have varying opinions as well, but this system worked for me.

 

[trippyl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6944055#post6944055 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by The_Nexis_One
not on your life....at least not in my DSB/system

There are defined zones of bacteria, mixing 1", 2", 3" more (depth) of the DSB will cause those bacterial colonies to be disrupted e.g. mass DEATH in the stired section. This will cause ammonia spikes, etc down the N cycle line until NO3 is raised.

The "don't touch it" formula for DSB's is why BB systems are all the rage.

We all know about the zones. The point is, if you stir a section of the sand bed during each water change, you are not doing that much damage to the bio, and it will re-establish in very little time. But more importantly, you are getting out the tons of muck and crap that have accumulated there.

 

[reverendmaynard]

I believe the "rinse with vinegar" option is your best bet to get truly clean, fresh sand. Sure some will dissolve away, but along with it will go all the PO4 and any other impurities that have been adsorbed by the sand, and you'll lose a lot less of it than if you threw it in the trash.

With the price of aragonite being what it is, and southdown usually impossible to find, that's what I'd do.

 

[The_Nexis_One]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6944282#post6944282 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by trippyl
The "don't touch it" formula for DSB's is why BB systems are all the rage.

We all know about the zones. The point is, if you stir a section of the sand bed during each water change, you are not doing that much damage to the bio, and it will re-establish in very little time. But more importantly, you are getting out the tons of muck and crap that have accumulated there.

Not suggesting the "don't touch it" formula (though it's worked for me for many years). And I understand your point - I just think that killing off a section of bacteria and stiring up DSB crud from anoxic areas, in the tank, is a bad thing for the system. No worries friend - disagreeing is all part of learning, which at least for me, is why I'm here.

IME, washing LR and/or sand in vinegar will 'etch' the surface, this produces a greater surface area for both bacteria and for disolution. My initial tank was setup with 60% dead rock from a guys failed tank (purchased used). I soaked everything in Vinegar, etc. an interesting side effect was that my Ca/Alk was abnormally high for the first 4 months. I didn't dose anything and had used IO salt, so I know that wasn't it

The conclusion the LFS's and I came to was that the LR and CC (at the time) was disolving a little bit and releasing Ca & buffer into the system. Now, I have no proof of this and the conclusion is only speculation... but I etching the sand a little while providing a Carbon source (any residual vinegar soaked deep in the rock) can't hurt IMHO.

If nothing else, do some "core samples" of your DSB, section off a 4" x4" or similiar area with something (acrylic/glass/plastic/etc) and siphon out this section with at little tank water as possible... smell the removed sand/water to see if it smells like rotten eggs and look for dark grey/black sections and/or clumping while removing. I wouldn't just go digging around in these sections though - if you do have a buid up, it'll be released into the tank water. While a water change directly following will help with any toxic effects, you'll never get all of the released compounds out, in addition to the N cycle compounds from the pending die off/recolonization.

Doing several of these 'core samples' throughout the tank will tell you if your DSB is likely to have problems.

There are many ways to skin a cat - just pick one and... ...Meow!

John.

 

[trippyl]

Well said. I am sure your high PH came from just that, as vinegar in kalk will have a similar effect and is often used for just that purpose.

I shoudl add that the reason why I am a proponent of stirring is that I also following the "dont touch it" model and after 2 years started seeing HA issues. After engaging in a DSB stirring and siphoning regiment, my HA has pretty much disappeared (it took months of this to turn it around tho).

 

[The_Nexis_One]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6944617#post6944617 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by trippyl
... I am sure your high PH came from just that, as vinegar in kalk will have a similar effect and is often used for just that purpose...

Sorry, I should have been more specific. My pH was rock solid at 8.4 ... if memory serves, my Alk was 3.5meg/l and Ca was 420. <digging for my notes from 5 years ago> ....

Anyway, regardless, etching is at the extreme end of some facit in Reef husbandry. To my knowledge, it's not been intentionally used, experimented with, or tested... So, take it for what you will.

Sorry for the thread Hi-jack meschaefer

John.

 

[meschaefer]

It is important to remeber that I am moving the entire system into a new tank. As such, the sand is going to get disturbed there is just no way around it. I understand all of the reasons one might want to stir their dsb and why that may not be a good idea... but it is going to happen in the case.

lets say for sake of argument that I am going to use the vinegar method. (I have lots of it laying around as I have been soaking my pump to clean them out prior to the big move)

Any thoughts on how much I should use, and or let it sit in the solution? I would assume that there is an inverse ratio, i.e. the more vinegar, the less time I need to let it sit. If we use my orginal etimates of 1/4 bucket of sand, fill the bucket with tank water untill half full... how much vinegar... 1/2 cup.... 1 cup (probably way to much)... 1 gallon (LOL)...

Do I have to worry about it screwing with the ph of my tank when I put it back in, and is there anything that I can do to counter act the ph swing...some baking soda perhaps?...once again any general guidelines?

What If I ran the system for a couple of days after the sand was put in, before I put any LR or livetock into it. (Most things will be held in a holding tank afterwards anyway)

HAS ANYONE EVER ACTUALLY TRIED THIS? there is a need to yell- the thought of sticking vinegar soaked sand into my system is scarry.

 

[trippyl]

if i were you, i'd use the opportunity to start with some brand new sand. Seed the new bed with some of the sand from the old. The bio filter will establish very quickly.

 

[reverendmaynard]

Never done it.

I'd use RO with the vinegar for the soak (SW will just compete with the vinegar IMO), use enough vinegar to get some good fizzing going. Don't use Baking Soda! (Haven't you seen the volcanoes they make at school with that stuff?) Rinse thouroughly with more RO, then soak in tankwater overnight, rinse with tank water one more time.

I would certainly run it empty for a few days before adding anything else, if that's an option. Watch the PH and alk. If they both need raising, use baked baking soda. Just alk, use baking soda. Just PH, airation.

Vinegar, in and of itself is not that bad. It will lower PH substantially, but is neutralized both by alk and by bacterial processes. Running it in the tank until alk and ph are normal should be sufficient to insure it's safety. Might want to stir it up a little after you think everything's normal, to be sure there's none hidden in the lower layers.

JMO.