Refugium necessary for mandarin dragonette?

[Figment]

I want to keep a mandarin dragonette in a 40 gallon tank with no other fish (maybe some cleaner crabs/shrimp) and I'm wondering in a refugium is absolutely necessary?

It's been recommended that I keep a sump with a refugium to house lots of copepods, but I've also been told that stocking the tank with plenty of live rock would make a refugium unnecessary since the pods will have plenty of space to hide. Thoughts?

Also, this is a little off topic, but can I get a dragonette in a fairly new tank if I buy plenty of pods to keep the tank stocked with until their population takes off?

 

[slief]

I want to keep a mandarin dragonette in a 40 gallon tank with no other fish (maybe some cleaner crabs/shrimp) and I'm wondering in a refugium is absolutely necessary?

It's been recommended that I keep a sump with a refugium to house lots of copepods, but I've also been told that stocking the tank with plenty of live rock would make a refugium unnecessary since the pods will have plenty of space to hide. Thoughts?

Also, this is a little off topic, but can I get a dragonette in a fairly new tank if I buy plenty of pods to keep the tank stocked with until their population takes off?

While a refugium isn't a prerequisite, a well established tank with a healty reproducing pod population really is. I would give your tank several months to mature if you want good odds of keeping it alive. They are one of the more difficult fish to keep alive long term and are considered expert fish for good reason.

 

[sixpackgarage]

Anything is possible, the key is to keep that pod population high. Maybe seed your tank with a 1000 pods and look with a flashlight at night and you should see plenty of them around.. then you know your Mandarin may have a chance before you go and buy one.

 

[Figment]

Okay. I'll let the tank establish itself for a few months before I get one. And a refugium will probably be good idea to start with, so I'll wait until Petco has a $1/gallon sale and just get two 40 gallon breeder tanks. Then I'll just build my own sump.

I have read that mandarins are difficult to keep, but everything I have read says it's because of their pod-only diet. As I understand it, if you can get over that hurdle, it's smooth sailing.

Which refugium setup would be better for a mandarin: a deep sand bed with macro algae or a bunch of live rock with macro algae?

I know refugiums need a slow water turnover rate. How slow?

Also, if I decide to get into coral later on down the road, would this 40 gallon tank with low flow be suitable or do they need higher flow?

 

[Figment]

So I've done some research and come up with a few different answers. For flow, I see people recommending 5-10 times turnover rate. Is there an ideal side of this range?

For pod growth, it seems live rock and algae is the best refugium for a mandarin. I've even looked into making pod "condos" for easy transport of pods into the display tank.

Still not sure about the coral question though.

 

[pledosophy]

A manderin in a 40g would be very hard to do, even with a refugium. You will likely have to supplement/culture pods on a very regular basis.

If the refugium is geared towards pod production rubble rock or cheato would be best. I would not do both. I would go as large as you can on this. Another 40g or larger would be great.

"Pod condo" read detritus trap to me. I have not had good luck with that route.

In where inbetween the 5-10x turnover through the refugium is fine. That really is the best range. Little over, little under is fine too.

Corals can grow in a 40g. You can add a powerhead to increase movement depending on what you want to keep.

HTH

 

[Figment]

A manderin in a 40g would be very hard to do, even with a refugium. You will likely have to supplement/culture pods on a very regular basis.

If the refugium is geared towards pod production rubble rock or cheato would be best. I would not do both. I would go as large as you can on this. Another 40g or larger would be great.

"Pod condo" read detritus trap to me. I have not had good luck with that route.

In where inbetween the 5-10x turnover through the refugium is fine. That really is the best range. Little over, little under is fine too.

Corals can grow in a 40g. You can add a powerhead to increase movement depending on what you want to keep.

HTH

Okay. I guess this brings up another controversial topic for mandarins. I see some people saying that a single mandarin needs 75 gallons so there are plenty of pods if no refugium is used. Others say that a minimum display tank can be as small as 29 gallons as long as the refugium is at least 50 gallons. Both ideas add up to roughly 75 gallons. But then some people say a single mandarin needs at least a 125, though I feel this much space seems kind of crazy (though I'm not sure what other species can be kept with mandarins other than a few specifics). My plan is to have a 40 gallon display with a 40 gallon sump with refugium.

I could up the display tank to 55 gallons during the $1/gallon sale at Petco with a 55 gallon sump and refugium. Would that be enough space?

Why would "pod condos" mean any more detritus than just a bunch of live rock? Also, why would you not use rocks and algae? Don't the pods need to feed off the algae?

I already plan to have plenty of live rock in the display tank for biological filtration. If I only used cheato algae in the refugium, will the pods have enough space to hide?

 

[BrettDS]

so I'll wait until Petco has a $1/gallon sale and just get two 40 gallon breeder tanks.

Petco is currently having a $1/gallon sale... at least the petco's in central florida are. I believe it runs until 8/8.

 

[BuzzPion]

Mandys eat one pod every few seconds until all the pods are gone. Just like little pod Terminators--they don't stop. It does not take long for them to clean out a 40B (even sumped).

They starve slowly though, so you may have some months of 'success' until it finally dies.

 

[Figment]

Petco is currently having a $1/gallon sale... at least the petco's in central florida are. I believe it runs until 8/8.

They are having the sale here too, but I don't move until October and I have nowhere to store tanks until then.

 

[Figment]

Mandys eat one pod every few seconds until all the pods are gone. Just like little pod Terminators--they don't stop. It does not take long for them to clean out a 40B (even sumped).

They starve slowly though, so you may have some months of 'success' until it finally dies.

What would you recommend for display tank and refugium tank sizes? Any tankmate recommendations?

Or how often would I need to add pods to keep the 40-55 gallon tank stocked appropriately to keep a mandarin happy and healthy?

 

[Wazzel]

In a 40 you will need to supplement the pods either directly or with a fuge. IMO you need 100+ gallons to have a good chance. I have a small mandarin in my system which is a 60 cube, 20 frag tank and sump all tied together. I am right at 100 gallons of volume. Both the sump and frag tank are full of pods. I just added the mandarin and my tank is about 18 months old.

 

[pledosophy]

IMO two 55g tanks will be better then 2 40's. Keep in mind your going to divide the sump up with baffles so you won't overflow your house is the return line ever gets clogged, and have to leave room for a power outage,so it won't hold quite 55g. Probably closer to 30-35.

Pod condo's or piles of liverock will collect detritus. Ideally when you design your display you will design it with the liverock and flow in mind so it will not collect detritus. The pods will still live in the rock, however piles of live rock in a tank are not good in my experience.

When you use cheatomorpha in the refugium, which is a great choice for algae, it is better to keep the fuge bare bottom to avoid it from collecting detritus (otherwise it turns into those pod condo things which is pretty bad). The pods will live in the ball of cheato. The refugium should either be a bunch of rock with no light, or barebottom with cheatomorpha and a light on 18/7 IME. (run the dark period at the time of the tanks lit period to stabalize pH).

With manderins, it's not that they need swimming room, it's that they need room for their food to grow. IME I have had a manderin starve to death in a 65g with a 30g refugium. He was the only pod eater in the tank. Recently I lost my manderin after 7 years. I moved across town and he died about 2 months later. I think I lost a lot of my pods when I moved and that was in a 120g system with a 55g sump.

If you were going to feed live pods to the tank for the manderin, you would want to setup some cultures for them and feed the tank several times a week.

There are many many fish and corals that can be kept with manderins. Hundreds in fact. For the small size tank you are planning (55g is small for a manderin) I would make sure the other tank mates do not eat pods as well.

 

[Figment]

IMO two 55g tanks will be better then 2 40's. Keep in mind your going to divide the sump up with baffles so you won't overflow your house is the return line ever gets clogged, and have to leave room for a power outage,so it won't hold quite 55g. Probably closer to 30-35.

Pod condo's or piles of liverock will collect detritus. Ideally when you design your display you will design it with the liverock and flow in mind so it will not collect detritus. The pods will still live in the rock, however piles of live rock in a tank are not good in my experience.

When you use cheatomorpha in the refugium, which is a great choice for algae, it is better to keep the fuge bare bottom to avoid it from collecting detritus (otherwise it turns into those pod condo things which is pretty bad). The pods will live in the ball of cheato. The refugium should either be a bunch of rock with no light, or barebottom with cheatomorpha and a light on 18/7 IME. (run the dark period at the time of the tanks lit period to stabalize pH).

With manderins, it's not that they need swimming room, it's that they need room for their food to grow. IME I have had a manderin starve to death in a 65g with a 30g refugium. He was the only pod eater in the tank. Recently I lost my manderin after 7 years. I moved across town and he died about 2 months later. I think I lost a lot of my pods when I moved and that was in a 120g system with a 55g sump.

If you were going to feed live pods to the tank for the manderin, you would want to setup some cultures for them and feed the tank several times a week.

There are many many fish and corals that can be kept with manderins. Hundreds in fact. For the small size tank you are planning (55g is small for a manderin) I would make sure the other tank mates do not eat pods as well.

Well I have plans to set up a 150+ gallon tank down the road, so I guess I'll just wait for a mandarin.

I still want to setup up either a 40 or 55 with equal sized sump. I don't think I can stock a whole lot in either tank size, but I did once see a video of two small eels that stayed under 10" at adult size. The guy had a pair of them in a tall 60 gallon with no sump, so I think a 40 with sump would work there.

Would it still be recommended to run a refugium on a small FOWLR tank? If so, would it be better to use a DSB or algae?