Rephrasing phosphate ?

[jabo]

What would cause a dramatic spike in the last month? Tank has been established over a year and I have not changed routine. I understand that over feeding and too much waste causes phosphates and I guess I should have explained better in earlier post.

I started noticing increased algae growth about a month or month and half ago. I decided to dose algae fix as the label recommends. Doing so wiped out my chaeto in the sump and the algae growth didn't improve, only got worse. I have not changed anything in regards to my normal routine. The only thing I can even imagine that would cause it is a missing harlequin shrimp (I assume it is dead). I started dosing amino acids a little over two months ago. Other than that what could make them spike?

I had my water tested yesterday at Memfish and they were at .037. I bough PhosGuard yesterday and I am currently running that in filter socks. Any other ideas?

Other than a heater blowing up a few years ago and "copper" poisoning my tank I have never had issues. My levels have remained steady and I have had good luck with most of my stuff. Any help would be greatly appreciated!



JAY SORRY FOR THE SMART A@@ REPLY, I SHOULD HAVE CLARIFIED MY QUESTION!!! I am watching huge SPS colonies turn white daily and it is driving me nuts!!!

 

[Acropolooza]

maybe change your r/o filters out or maybe you had a die off of inverts disturbed the sand bed? change filter socks media? thats about all I can think of?

 

[Acropolooza]

also .03 is good for sps so I mean thats not a huge spike?

 

[jabo]

Changed RO filters and membrane 3 weeks ago. Resin was replaced yesterday so I am waiting on mew water to do another change. Its not .03 its .37

 

[neuroslicer]

Yes, the dead animal matter can certainly contribute. Re: algalfix, it takes a good 5 - 7 doses to work but you will see a demise of your chaeto, which is also a phosphate sponge. I would stop using amino acids (which break down into guess what? nitrates and phosphates!) Cnidarians can synthesize all amino acids except for one, so I've never understood the logic for using AA supps (food supplements for coral makes much more sense). I'm assuming that you've got a protein skimmer pulling lots of gunk out daily? Putting Phosban in a reactor rather than a sock is much more efficient; I'd recommend that easy upgrade.

Best way to get the levels down immediately is via massive water change, of course.

My comment "Really" reflected the fact that phosphate generation is such a general topic that you can quickly do a forum search for the basic info. But your question above helps to narrow down the focus of our answers, thanks.

It's all a game of intake vs output.... try your best to lmit the sources of phosphates and maximize your means of elimination.

 

[nck1992]

If I remember all amino acids structure correctly, general amino acids do not have phosphorus.

 

[Rudolph]

Jason, you can get a TFL 150 reactor for under $40. Not sure what else other than good skimming, GFO, Chaeto...the article link below talks about impact of Ph levels. What is your Ph level? It talks about adding limewater to raise Ph to impact the phosphates......

I dropped the pellets several months ago and then I did start to see more algae on my glass much more frequently and then some started on my rocks. I switched my GFO from the sock method (passive) to the reactor a few months ago as well as re-starting chaeto. I also put my activiated carbon in another reactor too. The algae has decreased significantly.

Interesting read on phosphates...http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php#18

 

[Rudolph]

...I can also take my activated carbon reactor off line and you can use it with your GFO if you need something immediately...just let me know.

 

[neuroslicer]

Sorry for the brain fart.... nick's right... your AA's will contribute N, not P! Too much in a hurry this morning.:hmm5:

 

[Inexplicable]

A number of things can contribute to phosphates, and can easily build up over time to a "critical mass" where coral death starts to occur - some call this "Old Tank Syndrome". I dealt with it leaching from live rock for a while, almost losing several SPS colonies. It becomes bound into the surface of aragonite, which is your sand and live rock and even dead coral skeletons. Detritus and animal death can also contribute, as can the type of food you use. Plant-based foods are the worst, followed by un-rinsed frozen foods, with meaty foods and certain pellet/flake foods having the least amount of phosphates.

GFO or lanthanum chloride are chemical means of removing phosphates from the water. Macroalgae growth and harvest is another effective mean, as is carbon dosing and heavy skimming, though skimming alone probably can't keep up with phosphates.

Algaefix is an algaecide, which has its uses but is never a good idea for reducing phosphates. All it does is kills your algae, thus releasing all of the matter from that algae (carbon, nitrogen, phosphates) into the water, polluting it. It also kills your chaeto, which was previously growing to pull these nutrients from your water, and is now dying, releasing all the nutrients it had pulled out. So in essence, it kills a portion of your export mechanism, leaving you with an accumulation of phosphate (most important) and nitrogen (less important).

Amino acids contribute Nitrogen and Carbon - not Phosphorus. They can raise nitrate levels and drive bacterial growth, but generally do not cause an increase in Phosphates.

I've used lanthanum chloride (do a search) in combination with a small micron filter sock to quickly drop phosphates to manageable levels, then maintained those levels with GFO in a reactor and chaeto in my sump. If you need to quickly drop phosphate levels I would vote for lanthanum chloride. Phosphates at 0.37 mg/L is quite high and I would think that at this point there is substantial buildup within your substrate and live rock. GFO would initially remove some of this, but would exhaust quickly, allowing the levels to rise as more is leached out of the rock/substrate to reach equilibrium.

 

[jabo]

thanks guys for all the post. I am taking all advice and will keep you updated.

When Chris bought Jay's tank I was very lucky to get a frag of every one of his corals (free at that). I have been really proud to watch them thrive and taken great pride in watching them grow. Never being a "STICK" guy before, once I saw this fabulous tank I knew I had changed for good. This is the hardest thing I have ever gone thru and I greatly appreciate everyone's input. I am taking everyone's advice and post to heart and even doing a ton of research.


I will be in town this weekend with limited time.............. If you would like a nice SPS frag with only a frag later for pay back please let me know. I will not be able to run all over town and will be staying in Oakland. I would love to see a few people keep this stuff going because it is not looking good for me right now. Anyone interested just let me know and try to meet up with me so I don't have to run everywhere.


PAM, I THINK I GAVE YOU THE TORT AND NOT THE MILLI WHICH I STILL HAVE IF YOU WANT ANOTHER FRAG LET ME KNOW??????

 

[keaton]

Yes, it was a tort beautiful at that! I would love a blue milli though. The two frags seem to be fine and I plan to grow them out so they will be waiting for you when you get your problem resolved.

For what it's worth: About 2-1/2 or 3 years ago, I had a hair algae outbreak. The system had been running about a year or so at the time, new sandbed and a lot of old live rock from Keaton's 55. He wasn't the best about maintenance so we figured the old rock was leaching phosphate. Tried all the recommended fixes, big water changes, installed a phosphate reactor, manual removal, etc. Nothing helped at all. I was considering "cooking" the rock. I had been following highland reefer's "AlgaeFix Marine to control Hair Algae" thread and ultimately decided to give it a try. I think I used three doses. The hair algae melted away and never came back.

That really goes against the common wisdom, as I never did anything that affected the source, unless my other efforts had coincidentally reached some critical mass OR the hair algae happened to have consumed all the phospate at the moment I used the AlgaeFix. Whatever. I wish I knew 1) why I had hair algae in the first place 2) why it collapsed when it did.

Good luck, I wasn't getting a phosphate reading with my outbreak...and maybe that explains why it didn't affect the coral, the hair algae was taking it up directly.

I feel your pain.