Replacing bioballs w/ live rock...same problems with NO3?

[Nocturnal]

Simple question: If one were to replace his/her bioballs with live rock in their wet dry bio "tower" would the rock have the same NO3 producing problems as bioballs?
I assume the rock would have far more surface area for bacteria also, so it would be a benefit regardless.
Please keep in mind, that the rock is not submerged but rather it is being used exactly as the bioballs would be used.

 

[Jim_S]

The same problems will arise in time. The LR will collect detris and other organic material just like the BB's. The best way to switch out the BB's is to fill the tank with LR, or have a large sump filled with LR and a clean-up crew, and ditch the we/dry set-up all together. thats what I did about a year aago and my system is running very well.

Jim

 

[Nocturnal]

So you're saying the prob with the trickle filter design/idea is the detritus that gets into the media? This is what creates the nitrates?
My tank has a bunch of liverock, so I'm not worried about mine. I'm just trying to figure out what makes wet/dry filters nitrate factories and is there something that can be done about this, using the same set up. Thought the rock may break it down better :shrug:

 

[Patchy]

Using a very fine filter pad on top of bioballs and changing it very often helps. i did this a few years ago before i knew about fuge's etc

 

[T-T-Trigger]

Leaving it un-submerged, while theoretically adding more surface area would only worsen the situation if you are trying to battle rapid nitrAte production.

But, it should actually help (replacing the bb with LR) given two prerequisites (imo), a pre-filter of some kind that you clean frequently, and also you want to raise the water level so that the rock is submerged. Another benefit to lr is that even small bits of live rock have at least some denitrification properties, whereas bio-balls have zero, for this slow down of nitrAte production and to promote some kind of denitrification, the rock should stay under water at all times.

 

[andynyc]

I'd be more concerned of an ammonia spike due to replacing the BB and removing the already established bacteria.

 

[Nocturnal]

So, what I'm trying to get at and I believe two of you touched on is, having any of these items (bioballs or live rock) not submerged and treated to a trickle like filter will result in nitrates regardless. Having these submerged, and I'll go on a limb here and even say bioballs too, will result in less nitrates...
Hence, the main reason wet/dry's are not good at preventing nitrates is because of their lengthy exposure to O2??

Is this how I'm reading/understanding your philosophies?
Makes sense to me and this is why I brought this up

 

[Nocturnal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6510045#post6510045 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by andynyc
I'd be more concerned of an ammonia spike due to replacing the BB and removing the already established bacteria.

I may have worded it wrong, but this is not what I was getting at. I don't promote people doing an entire swap at one time. This was more of a theoretical discussion than anything

 

[SW1TCH]

Good question Nocturnal i have benn wonder this same thing also.

 

[Jim_S]

BB's are nitrate factories because the trap debris over time causing the nitrogen cycle to continue on and on creating more nitrates. Unless you have something to remove these nitrates, I.E. a denitrator, fuge w/ macro, DSB, water changes, they will continue to accumulate.

LR, when housed in the display or in a sump, will house the same bacteria as the BB's. However, the rock will be cleaned by your clean-up crew and fish, and will not accumulate as much debris. Moreover, it is believed that there is beneficial bacteria (denitrifying) and worms etc that live deep inside the LR that is believed to also help with denitrification.

Now with that said, all these beneficial organisms and bacteria will die if run in a trickle style filter. So what you will have is a rock that will act just as a BB in the end.

Jim

 

[fishox]

so should you stock your sump with a clean up crew? I only relpaced the BB with live rock and chaeto. Would I benefit by addig some crabs and snails to this part of my sump?

 

[dchao]

I believe BioBalls got the nickname called "nitrate factory" because it is ultra efficient in converting wastes into NO3 in the perfection condition for these nitrification bacteria to grow (rich concentration of oxygen and water). Where as sandbed and LR's do slow conversion (limited oxygen), and in the anaerobic zone (if one exist) can convert NO3 back to nitrogen.

If you keep the LR's un-submerged, water trickling down mixing with air, then you won't get anaerobic zone, and it will just be just as efficient as BB's in producing NO3. So I think it will be a bad idea.

Just remove the BB's slowly, you should not get a ammonia spike, because you have established sandbed and LR's in the display already.