Return pump question

C

Canuck007

New member
Hi, I'm setting up a 150 gallon mixed reef, 55 gallon sump. The tank has two holes in the overflow. One is 1.5" and the other is 1".

I'm going to use the 1" for the main drain and the 1.5" as the emergency...ala herbie style I guess.

I have a mag 9.5 (I have one extra as well) that I was going to use for the return. I'll have about 5 ft of head.

I think if I had 3-5x turnover, I should be good? Would this pump work ok?

Most of my flow will come from a few vortechs and another powerhead.

Thanks!
 
I think 10 x turnover is the general rule of thumb most reefers are told...

My return is the vectra...so I can easily dip under that during night or exceed during day or lower at feeding. Great product IMO.

I think its better to have a 10x turnover or more...to be on safe side...because of head loss, etc... at the worst if your pump is too fast...you might even be able to modify return nozzles or by one which allows two or three different directions to get some flow into some otherwise dead areas....
 
champion6sigma said:
I think 10 x turnover is the general rule of thumb most reefers are told...

My return is the vectra...so I can easily dip under that during night or exceed during day or lower at feeding. Great product IMO.

I think its better to have a 10x turnover or more...to be on safe side...because of head loss, etc... at the worst if your pump is too fast...you might even be able to modify return nozzles or by one which allows two or three different directions to get some flow into some otherwise dead areas....
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unless i'm mistaken this is true but is a little misleading. as far as i understand it, your tank is supposed to have 10x turnover minimum but you also are supposed to take your return pump AND powerheads into account as well. either that or my 1000gph pump is outrageously under-sized. between my 1.5" drain, 1" return, friction loss, head pressure and any turns in your plumbing considerably shrink that down.
 
JohnnyHildo said:
unless i'm mistaken this is true but is a little misleading. as far as i understand it, your tank is supposed to have 10x turnover minimum but you also are supposed to take your return pump AND powerheads into account as well. either that or my 1000gph pump is outrageously under-sized. between my 1.5" drain, 1" return, friction loss, head pressure and any turns in your plumbing considerably shrink that down.
Click to expand...

I don't quite understand how powerheads affect or should be included in turnover....regardless of what powerheads are causing additional water to be put in...say you have one powerhead...ok maybe its causing a smidge of water to come down faster...or if you have 10 powerheads...ok maybe a little more is going into overflow...or say you have 100 powerheads (moving water around) then ok more is going into the overflow (I'm guessing? not even sure of that) the return pump wether you have a 200 or a 1000 like you is still ONLY going to return or "turn over" at whatever speed its rated for....

I just don't get it...based on your theory the number of powerheads, type of powerheads...and speed you set them on...are affecting turnover....and I say all they affect is water movement and currents maybe even make waves....the pump doesn't know whats going on up top...its going to shoot up water at the speed its set unless it runs out of water in the sump....and of course the piping up is going to affect it and your nozzles for output
 
Now you can't have too powerful of a pump that out does your overflow and piping or I'm guessing it can flood the DT and overflow unless you have an emergency drain or other safeguard...

The only factors affecting IMO the main pump is the pump hose to the tank opening and that tubing to the output nozzle...downflow is another animal altogether affected by overflow opening, type, plumbing type, tank opening sizes, downpipe type and shape and then even a filter sock or heavy mechanizal filters could slow stuff down...but water in the sump is water in the sump, the return pump will use whatever is there and shoot it up at its rate...and I'm guessing the return pump number (including its piping to top) is the true indicator of turn over..

thats my theory...but I'm not an expert.
 
champion6sigma said:
I don't quite understand how powerheads affect or should be included in turnover....regardless of what powerheads are causing additional water to be put in...say you have one powerhead...ok maybe its causing a smidge of water to come down faster...or if you have 10 powerheads...ok maybe a little more is going into overflow...or say you have 100 powerheads (moving water around) then ok more is going into the overflow (I'm guessing? not even sure of that) the return pump wether you have a 200 or a 1000 like you is still ONLY going to return or "turn over" at whatever speed its rated for....

I just don't get it...based on your theory the number of powerheads, type of powerheads...and speed you set them on...are affecting turnover....and I say all they affect is water movement and currents maybe even make waves....the pump doesn't know whats going on up top...its going to shoot up water at the speed its set unless it runs out of water in the sump....and of course the piping up is going to affect it and your nozzles for output
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you're overthinking it.
powerheads don't facilitate physically pushing water through your overflow any faster. they simple move water throughout the tank which some corals and fish need to thrive. without flow the nutrients don't reach them.
 
JohnnyHildo said:
you're overthinking it.
powerheads don't facilitate physically pushing water through your overflow any faster. they simple move water throughout the tank which some corals and fish need to thrive. without flow the nutrients don't reach them.
Click to expand...

Maybe I misunderstood the initial query. I thought the poster asked about turnover....which is dictated IMO by a return pump...

Powerheads do move water through the DT....they can even push water around the overflow heads and make sure detritutus gets through it too, push nutrients around as you say, they are of course extremely important to a well rounded reef tank.

Overthinking is my specialty. Overthinking, second guessing, arguing, and giving me opinions :)
 
But yeah , water movement within the tank doesn't mean turnover I believe. there are low flow or high flow tanks, or no flow....but you can have a closed tank without overflow or downpipes or sumps or anything just a box, and have powerheads - you would have flow but zero turnover....
 
Turnover is the amount of water your return pump can move through the sump - shoot for 5x to 10x.
Total flow is the sum of turnover + power heads. Shoot for 20 - 40 or more depending on your tanks inhabitants.
Your pump will work, but you might want to look at something a little larger. Again it depends on your bioload and how good your skimmer is.
 
champion6sigma said:
Maybe I misunderstood the initial query. I thought the poster asked about turnover....which is dictated IMO by a return pump...

Powerheads do move water through the DT....they can even push water around the overflow heads and make sure detritutus gets through it too, push nutrients around as you say, they are of course extremely important to a well rounded reef tank.

Overthinking is my specialty. Overthinking, second guessing, arguing, and giving me opinions :)
Click to expand...
i think i'm the one that got mixed up. i know the difference between flow and turnover yet i decided to mix them up making things confusing. my bad fellas.
 
What I should have told canuck from the get go....is that I don't agree with his decision to use the 1.5 as emergency and the 1.0 for the main drain. I think 99 percent of all of us reefers will have the larger downflow and the emergency does not need to be as thick as the main drain. Mine is smaller. That being said if they are the same size, no big deal...but if you have two sizes, give the larger one to the main drain.

Can anyone back me up and confirm this?

There are strict limits to what flows are capable of in the downflow and it related to the opening of course and the type of plumbing setup you use (mine is durso). For a 150 gallon tank 1.0 is not big enough. My 50 gallon uses a 1.25

My emergency drain is 0.75.
 
10X is ridiculous and a waste of pump and power. I am shooting for 5X and will probably get a realistic return of 3X on my new tank. Now I will have somewhere around 15X water movement at peak with my closed loops, but will only run that to shake up some dead spots from time to time.
 
kcinnick said:
10X is ridiculous and a waste of pump and power. I am shooting for 5X and will probably get a realistic return of 3X on my new tank. Now I will have somewhere around 15X water movement at peak with my closed loops, but will only run that to shake up some dead spots from time to time.
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5x seems like an absolute minimum unless you are running a freshwater. Fowler might be able to do less too, then a true reef. Every foot upwards from pump accounts for headless and all 45 or 90 degree turns add more to that. The output nozzle and the tube going from the bulk head to the output nozzle also add to headloss I believe.

The only true way to account what you are acheiving is a water flow test from the top output nozzle.

Closed loop systems do have different parameters than a non closed. My vectra pump has to be switched to an entirely different mode if my system was closed looped.

And I was absolutely right on the 1.00 drain after spending more hours researching. If you have a 1.5...use the 1.5 on the main drain. Use the smaller for the emergency which is just a straight gravity shot down to the sump. All tanks should be plumbed with larger holes I read. 1.0 is bare minimum and is not ideal for a bulkhead opening (main drain) for any reef tank.
 
Thank you all for your responses....thanks champion for researching the drain size...

I was originally going to do the 1.5 as the main and then the 1 for the emergency. But on one of my threads someone said do it the other way. I didn't quite understand that.

But others say with a full siphon I should be able to get great flow from the 1" drain...up to 1400 gph. Not 600gph like a normal 1" drain would give without full siphon.

Also some suggest to not have too much flow through the sump...this gives more time for the filters/skimmers/etc to work on the water. I guess the opinions vary but I was thinking of trying to go for about 10x turnover through the sump.
 
Canuck007 said:
Thank you all for your responses....thanks champion for researching the drain size...

I was originally going to do the 1.5 as the main and then the 1 for the emergency. But on one of my threads someone said do it the other way. I didn't quite understand that.

But others say with a full siphon I should be able to get great flow from the 1" drain...up to 1400 gph. Not 600gph like a normal 1" drain would give without full siphon.

Also some suggest to not have too much flow through the sump...this gives more time for the filters/skimmers/etc to work on the water. I guess the opinions vary but I was thinking of trying to go for about 10x turnover through the sump.
Click to expand...

I finally found the link I was searching for. I didn't know herbies were setup slightly different, and you are right the siphon makes that difference. (My setup isn't herbie)

Heres what you want to read (link below) and 1 inch is acceptable for a max possibility of 1300 gph downflow under perfect siphon.

http://gmacreef.com/herbie-overflow-reef-tank-plumbing-method-basics/
 
Yup! That's the exact article I was looking at and I was going to post a link to it but you beat me to it! Thank you for taking the time to look that up. Now i've got sooooo much work to do before our move in about 10 days!
 
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