Rock "Cooking"--a dangerous trend or something worthwhile?
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Sindjin
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Just like any other living organism, bacteria will go where the food is. If you are feeding Live Rock and there are higher concentrations of food toward the outside of the rock...thats where the majority of the bacteria will live, die and feed. The problem is we cant know how much food is buried/stored deep in the core of our rock so to assure that it gets consumed we cook the rock. Eventually, outer food sources will be eliminated with scrubbing, dunking, swishing, water changes etc. With no outside food source available, what will the bacteria due to survive? Go to where the food is. Stored internally from who knows how many years of build up, etc. If you cure your rock in tank, with light, algaes, snails, hermits, fish, etc... you will be providing a food source for the bacteria. In my tank for example, I have done just that. However I am also focusing on exporting nutrients, blowing off my rock, changing water weekly and feeding my 3 fish once every other day with no excess. It has taken 3 months, but finally I am seeing the ending stages where the only detritus really being shed is the mineral/sand from inside the rock, which is finally being exported by the bacteria.
I don't see any reason to believe your scenario. I think it's possible that some live rock has a lot of organisms in it, that dark curing would kill. I can also believe that some rock might have a heavier load of phosphate that could cause problems. I don't see any reason to believe that's common.
As far as bacteria going into the rock and snails, fish, etc, providing a food source, and assuming from there that the rock can't be made usable is simply not credible to me. People do it all the time.
As far as bacteria going into the rock and snails, fish, etc, providing a food source, and assuming from there that the rock can't be made usable is simply not credible to me. People do it all the time.
Sindjin
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What organisms living in rock would Dark Curing kill? These are bacterial organisms, etc that already live in complete darkness. They would actually thrive in this environment, IMO.
Oh no? Just look at my rock. It was Fresh from Fiji. Smelled SO clean it was amazing. 3.5 months later I'm still blowing out detritus from inside the rock and I extracted the sand accumulated on the bottom of my BB (This was yesterday). I test that sample for PO4 and voila... 4ppm. Meanwhile my water column tests .05. I think it is VERY common that rock is loaded with PO4...organic or inorganic. We as hobbyists just havent tested for it specifically... rather we test our water column and think everythings ok. Whether it would ultimately cause a huge problem for me? Who knows...but the PO4 is present nonetheless.
I never said the rock cant be usable. And just because people do it all the time doesn't make it the best method, either. Just ask the Lemmings.
First, I'm glad Randy is giving this process some consideration, as he always provides straight answers and simple solutions to various issues. Second, I must say that Sean T has presented his case for cooking rocks as an option to rid a tank of algae issues and has never claimed it to be the only solution.
I have read and re-read the threads on this topic. It seems to me that cooking rock is a drastic measure. I don't relish the idea of tearing down my system and waiting eight weeks to put it back together. But for those struggling with ongoing algae issues that have not declined after using traditional methods, perhaps cooking can offer them a fresh start.
I have not tried this method, yet. So I cannot speak to its effectiveness, but it does have its appeal for me. I struggle with valonia and "red turf" and have read that are both low-nutrient algaes. My water parameters are fine and my flow is good. Hell, my tank often gets more attention than my family, so I don't feel husbandry is the problem.
My questions for Randy would be: as far as the die off of organisms, won't corralin algae regrow over time? Wouldn't putting in a few pieces of fresh live rubble re-seed the system with additional life forms? Will this method offer me a chance to "try again" with the battle against "low nutrient" algae?
I have read and re-read the threads on this topic. It seems to me that cooking rock is a drastic measure. I don't relish the idea of tearing down my system and waiting eight weeks to put it back together. But for those struggling with ongoing algae issues that have not declined after using traditional methods, perhaps cooking can offer them a fresh start.
I have not tried this method, yet. So I cannot speak to its effectiveness, but it does have its appeal for me. I struggle with valonia and "red turf" and have read that are both low-nutrient algaes. My water parameters are fine and my flow is good. Hell, my tank often gets more attention than my family, so I don't feel husbandry is the problem.
My questions for Randy would be: as far as the die off of organisms, won't corralin algae regrow over time? Wouldn't putting in a few pieces of fresh live rubble re-seed the system with additional life forms? Will this method offer me a chance to "try again" with the battle against "low nutrient" algae?
We've been through that a number of times, with plenty of examples. In general, removing photosynthesis removes a potential food input to the system, as well.
You might have gotten a bunch of rock with a lot of life that is dying off slowly, or that contained a lot of inorganic phosphate that is leaching out. Neither seems a common problem to me.
I see no point in name-calling.
Sindjin
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My rock is actually some of the healthiest i've seen. I removed the dead/dying stuff early on with scrubbing, dunking and swishing.
As of now, I have sponges, Porites, tube worms, etc... that are thriving. ALL Live Rock will have PO4 buried in it...no matter where you get it. Thats just it. It ALL contains it. So it is VERY common. No one has ever tested it though.
Here's what my Rock Looked like out of the box:
And here it is 1 week in to cleaning, scrubbing, dunking and swishing:
Pretty clean rock I would say. Especially for UNCURED. I lost my digital camera otherwise I would post some recent pics.
Sindjin
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I meant no one has testd it other than testing the water column.
Such as in the way I extracted the detritus expelled from my rock and tested that sample. It was MUCH higher than what my water column tested. This shows that the mineral detritus coming out of the rock was loaded with PO4. And my point was to show you that is IS common, where as you said it wasnt common.
Such as in the way I extracted the detritus expelled from my rock and tested that sample. It was MUCH higher than what my water column tested. This shows that the mineral detritus coming out of the rock was loaded with PO4. And my point was to show you that is IS common, where as you said it wasnt common.
How do you know that no one has tested the phosphate content of live rock.
What I said was that it doesn't seem to be a common problem with most people's live rock. I don't see why the PO4 in your water sample is supposed to support dark-curing all live rock, and it doesn't demonstrate that the base source of the phosphate was anything other than the result of dead organisms decaying.
BTW, nice looking rock!!!
Calcium carbonate is a natural adsorber of phosphorus. If you have LR, you have introduced a form of P to your tank. Some rock will have more, some will have less. Luckily for us, bacteria are usually efficient enough to bind up most phosphorus before algaes can utilize it.
I can tell you why you are finding a lot of P in your rock and a lot of sediment.
While I mostly have Marshall Island rock, I do have some Fiji mixed in because I really like the looks of it. However, IMO, any rock from Fiji should be cured well before adding it to the tank. There will be high P content due to agricultural runoff and there will be high sediment because they are digging it out of muddy areas and powerwashing it.
Does this mean, "Don't buy Fiji LR"? NNNOOOO!!! It just means be aware that this LR comes from an area that has too much P for stony corals to grow because of agricultural runoff, contains a lot of algaes (including coralline), and is muddy. Curing well would be a very good idea IMO.
If you want to cure it with the lights on...fine. If you want to "cook" it with the lights off....fine. Each method has it's plusses and minusses. You will likely lose some of the coralline coverage with cooking but will have less adsorbed phosphorus and the pieces of broken LR that gets shed will be in a tub instead of your tank. You also won't likely have the typical "cycling" algaes in your tank.
If you cure it with the lights on, you will likely have to manually remove some problem algaes in the beginning, will likely have more diatoms in the beginning, more cyanobacteria in the beginning, etc. However, you will likely have more coralline algae and that is important to a lot of people.
I don't understand the "Us" vs "Them" on the issue. We all have differing goals for our tanks. Heck, I have 2 mantis tanks. Not many people find them as fascinating as I do. Those tanks are set up to cater to those animals. My attitude is let people do what they want. Let them know the facts about their choice but let them do what they want (as long as it isn't unethical).
I can personally testify that "cooking" doesn't kill everything. If you need me to upload a picture with my right hand raised and my left hand on a Bible, let me know. At the same time, while it hasn't happened to me, some people seem to have lost some of their coralline algae and that is a very big negative to some.
Pick your poison....neither method is without flaws. Choose which flaws you want to live with.
Calcium carbonate is a natural adsorber of phosphorus. If you have LR, you have introduced a form of P to your tank. Some rock will have more, some will have less. Luckily for us, bacteria are usually efficient enough to bind up most phosphorus before algaes can utilize it.
I can tell you why you are finding a lot of P in your rock and a lot of sediment.
http://pacificaquafarms.com/premium.htm
While I mostly have Marshall Island rock, I do have some Fiji mixed in because I really like the looks of it. However, IMO, any rock from Fiji should be cured well before adding it to the tank. There will be high P content due to agricultural runoff and there will be high sediment because they are digging it out of muddy areas and powerwashing it.
Does this mean, "Don't buy Fiji LR"? NNNOOOO!!! It just means be aware that this LR comes from an area that has too much P for stony corals to grow because of agricultural runoff, contains a lot of algaes (including coralline), and is muddy. Curing well would be a very good idea IMO.
If you want to cure it with the lights on...fine. If you want to "cook" it with the lights off....fine. Each method has it's plusses and minusses. You will likely lose some of the coralline coverage with cooking but will have less adsorbed phosphorus and the pieces of broken LR that gets shed will be in a tub instead of your tank. You also won't likely have the typical "cycling" algaes in your tank.
If you cure it with the lights on, you will likely have to manually remove some problem algaes in the beginning, will likely have more diatoms in the beginning, more cyanobacteria in the beginning, etc. However, you will likely have more coralline algae and that is important to a lot of people.
I don't understand the "Us" vs "Them" on the issue. We all have differing goals for our tanks. Heck, I have 2 mantis tanks. Not many people find them as fascinating as I do. Those tanks are set up to cater to those animals. My attitude is let people do what they want. Let them know the facts about their choice but let them do what they want (as long as it isn't unethical).
I can personally testify that "cooking" doesn't kill everything. If you need me to upload a picture with my right hand raised and my left hand on a Bible, let me know. At the same time, while it hasn't happened to me, some people seem to have lost some of their coralline algae and that is a very big negative to some.
Pick your poison....neither method is without flaws. Choose which flaws you want to live with.
I'm curious by nature. (I even made a custom 10 micron filterbag to go over my return once to see if pods could survive the trip from my sump/refugium). OK...I admit it. I'm a dork. But I'm a curious dork. I once did exactly what he did and was amazed at the P content after letting the "shedding" sit in my tube for 15 minutes or so. I then retested my water column and didn't have problematic phosphate levels. Once, on some thread, he said that he had this coming out of his rock and I told him to run a P test on it. It turns out, he's curious too because he had already done it.
I see no sense in arguing the cause because whatever it is, the "shedding" from LR is very high in P.
Sindjin
New member
Inwall,
Good post on the Live Rock!
It doesn't seem to be a common problem with most people's live rock because most people don't specifically test their detritus piles from their rock for PO4. That's why. I would have never realized it either if I just tested my water column... it tested .05ppm. The detritus pile was 4ppm. All live rock will house mineral detritus thats loaded with PO4. How much? WHo knows...thats just it. You dont know.
Good post on the Live Rock!
It doesn't seem to be a common problem with most people's live rock because most people don't specifically test their detritus piles from their rock for PO4. That's why. I would have never realized it either if I just tested my water column... it tested .05ppm. The detritus pile was 4ppm. All live rock will house mineral detritus thats loaded with PO4. How much? WHo knows...thats just it. You dont know.
That's because your not talking about algae anymore. All the threads on cooking rock sought to eliminate problem algae, not measure PO4. I'd bet you could cook a rock for nine months, grind it up and test it for PO4 and still show levels above what is in the water column. So what? The damn algae will be gone - at least initially. Sorry to see this thread turn into another excercise in RC cerebrial masturbation.
Randy, if you are still watching this thread, could you address the algae and life questions I asked earlier?
Randy, if you are still watching this thread, could you address the algae and life questions I asked earlier?
Sindjin
New member
PO4 is a nutrient that doesn't get broken down. Unlike Nitrate which will be denitrified... Phosphorus naturally sinks deeper into substrate. ("which is why we have Phosphate mines in Florida" -Bomber)
If you have a DSB... detritus will sink into the sandbed. The PO4 will not go away. It will accumulate and possibly be released later when the sink is full.... OR when conditions in the deeper sand bed become acidic (less than 7.9). Those acidic conditions will cause any PO4 thats bound to calciferous substrate to be released as well.
Cooking Rock will help you, the aquarist prevent uneccessary amounts of P04 to accumulate in the sandbed. Its obviously easier to export PO4 out of a BB, but an SPS dominant tank needs to maintain the lowest levels of PO4 at all times.
The bottom line? I want clean rock. period. It was a hellava lot harder to get clean rock in the lighted display then it would have been if I just cooked it. To each his own!
Sorry, I didn't answer your questions because you directed them at Randy. I didn't mean to be quite so curt about the various posts all over the place, either.
You could try the dark-curing. It would eventually most likely kill off any pest algea, although I suppose spores, etc, might remain. Other than that, I don't see any problems it's necessarily going to solve.
Dark-curing should remove nutrients from the rock, but you might be able to get the same effect by the usual nutrient export mechanisms. Surely the rock will simply go back to the high-nutrient state if the underlying problem isn't solved.
You could try the dark-curing. It would eventually most likely kill off any pest algea, although I suppose spores, etc, might remain. Other than that, I don't see any problems it's necessarily going to solve.
Dark-curing should remove nutrients from the rock, but you might be able to get the same effect by the usual nutrient export mechanisms. Surely the rock will simply go back to the high-nutrient state if the underlying problem isn't solved.
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