Rolling the proverbial dice with "Zoa Pox"

[acro-ed]

Hi,

I rarely get time to post, and I have not previously spent much time in the Zoa Forum, but I have been getting increasingly into zoas lately and I had an experience I thought I would share.

This thread is inspired by a similar thread in the SPS forum about living with acro flatworms. I am not going to suggest to anyone on what to do with their own system; just thought I would share...


I have a couple hundred gallon system, and I easily have a thousand plus zoas. I say this so that you can appreciate that I would not be entirely reckless with my methods.

Over the course of a week or two I let my dosers get way out of whack. Between work and a toddler it is what it is. My alk fell to the low 7ish range and my salinity somehow worked its way up to approx. 1.028 (long story).

During this time many of my zoas either looked less vibrant or were partially closed. Keep in mind none of them were actually dying, but it was obvious I needed to allocate some time to set it back straight.

I noticed that my "black hole sun" zoas were more stressed than the rest, and the following day I noticed 4 polyps with the dreaded "zoa pox" (4 of approx. 200 in this colony). This particular colony is usually very robust, and has been in my system for about 5 years.

As an experiment I scraped the pox off of two of the polyps, and plucked the other two polyps out entirely. Over the next two days I did a 10% water change each day, alongside chem adjustments and some added Brightwell Iodine and Brightwell Restor (I am not partial to Brightwell, but I have had good experience with these during a stress event).

I strongly considered removing the colony for a Furan-2 treatment, and I already had a quarantine tank ready to go. Looking at the colony there were approximately 4 infected polyps remaining (different polyps than before), but the colony, overall, looked much better.

Another day had gone by and I lost a few polyps (hard to tell exactly how many on a colony like this), but the zoa pox were barely present, and now on only maybe 2 or 3 polyps.

The next day I had lost those last few affected polyps, but the zoa pox were gone entirely. I stared at that colony and many others for over an hour, scrutinizing every last millimeter of tissue. There were no pox.

Now, a couple weeks later the colony is back in full on growth mode, the handful of polyps that died (I am estimating <10) have been filled back in by new offshoots and the polyps are fat and vibrant.

I am posting this because I want to offer my hypothesis that zoa pox is a condition that afflicts zoas under stress, and that if the stressors are addressed the colony has the capability to heal itself.

Some factors that I think contributed to this result in this limited instance are being able to specifically identify and quickly address the stressors that triggered this event, as well as the size of the colony. Not that a couple hundred polyps is a "huge" colony, but I feel having a well developed mat of zoas adds to their natural defense mechanism.

I will also suggest that the "zoa pox" may lay dormant within the zoa; that it may be present in some form within our systems already. I am suggesting this because I have not seen a single afflicted polyp in at least 5-6 years in my system. I have introduced a few zoa frags over that time, but I use a series of very aggressive dips before anything enters my system.

At any rate, I rolled the dice with zoa pox and I came up a winner. It did not spread to any other colonies, and there is not a single polyp with pox in my system. All of my zoas are growing like crazy and have great color; the zoa pox simply disappeared.


-Ed


(I can post a pic of the colony if anyone is interested)

 

[A. Grandis]

Thanks for sharing that!
Very interesting!!

Here is my contribution:
As all types of diseases, there is aways a higher probability of infection (specially in the case of zoa pox) when the host is stressed out. That is simply because of their weakened immune system, due to such stress.

There are also many types of other bacterial infections that will remain dormant for months or years in our systems and in the ocean, just to impress us with their destructive power when something trigs the stress in the system/environment.

Many of us have noticed that stability in our tanks is one of the keys, and the way to go with zoanthids. The bacterial infections are the main reason for that!!!!

I agree with the fact that when more polyps are present, the stronger is the possibility of that colony to fight diseases, but only if that colony is healthy enough for that.
The immune system of any colony can be strong or weak, independent of how many polyps it has.
I think the number of polyps could be more directly related to the reproduction rate, healing from fragging, and shipping ability, than the immune system. But yeah it does have it's play there, of course.
The bottom line is the health of the colony. That is what counts most IMO. That's directly related to the immune system.

One thing for sure: you did introduced the bacteria in your system.
It doesn't matter how strong/long the dips were.
The "zoa pox" bacteria needs to be present in the system to act. No doubt about that.
I think that infected zoas could carry the pathogen without manifestation of the disease, and so it would show off when stress comes in the picture. That's a strong possibility.

Perhaps such bacteria could live externally or even internally, dormant.
Only careful scientific research would review the whole thing to us.

I don't have zoa pox, but I do have many other types of bacteria in my system that do act once in a while when stress comes in, and many times the results are devastating!!! They just take over the zoas, sometimes in a couple hours, and there is not much to do. Most of my problems come from blackouts or any type of electrical failures, therefore lack of oxygen and higher temperature in the system!!!!

The zoa pox symptoms may be gone ("simply disappeared"), but please keep in mind that the bacteria is probably still in in your system. The certainty of the elimination of the bacteria from the system could be assumed only if effective medication was used. But depending of how deep the bacteria was embedded into the tissue, even the medicine wouldn't affect it.

Solution? Keep parameters stable and in the acceptable range.

I would like to hear more from you in regards to the iodine dosing, please.

Do you feed your zoas? Other additives?

Also, I wouldn't think dipping a large colony on a live rock in Furan2 would be 100% safe.
I think the live rock would be affected by the Furan2.

Oh no, no need pictures... LOL!!!
(**You know how much people like those images, don't you?!!**)

Congratulations on the baby!!!!
Enjoy, they do grow fast!!!
Don't work too hard!!!

Grandis.

 

[A. Grandis]

... and this could be a great thread if everyone get involved!!!

Grandis.

 

[acro-ed]

I snapped a quick moonlight pic this morning of the colony I am talking about. This tank is on a reverse light cycle from my display, so this is right before the lights go completely out (~7am).

The BHS zoas are on one of those corner acrylic frag racks. I put a handful of marble tiles on there and now the whole rack is just one big mat.

I could dip this whole rack, but at this point I don't think I'm going to disturb it.

I have had one prior instance of zoa pox about 6 years ago. I got a colony of the purple and yellow japanese zoas and they ended up getting pox a week or so into being in my system. At that time I was not familiar with Furan-2 as a treatment, and I did some searching here and elsewhere (which yielded the Furan-2 route). I pulled that small rock out and treated multiple times and it was successful. I have not seen any pox since then (approx. six years; until this most recent occurrence).

-Ed

 

[acro-ed]

Grandis,
To answer some of your questions...

I am not measuring the Iodine levels. I shoot a "squirt" directly out of the bottle into my overflow about once a week. Highly scientific, I know. lol. When fragging zoas (and everything else) I use Lugol's in a little acrylic box that I cut/mount things in.

As for food, I make my own frozen food. It is a coral food/fish food all in one. It is the only thing I feed. I feed once per day in the evening. I would say the consistency is akin to "Rod's Food" or similar. It is a mix of fresh wild caught seafood (usually locally sourced; i.e. Gulf caught): scallops, shrimp, fish (usually cobia or redfish), and then I add pureed spinach and peas, powdered oyster eggs, cyclopeeze, fish eggs, rotifers, mysis, liquid plankton blend, vitamin blend, amino acids, and a ton of shredded dried seaweed (mix of nori, purple, and brown types). Getting the ratio right is a little tricky to get the desired consistency, but when I'm done I freeze it into flat packs and then chop it into 1"x1"x0.25" squares.

I do not target feed anything; I just throw 2 cubes into my 120g and 1 cube into each of my frag tanks.

Other chemicals I dose besides the standard "3" are Iodine/Iodide, Potassium, Strontium, minor/trace element mix, and when I've done a lot of chopping or something goes awry I shoot the Brghtwell Restor in there that I mentioned earlier (using the same scientific method as the iodine).

Keep in mind that most of the supplemental dosing happens only about 1x a week, and the dosers take care of the standard "2" part. The Mag I just dump straight into my sump about 1x per week also.

Thanks!
Ed

 

[triggreef]

Careful without testing what your dosing. I was dosing iodine for quite some time, at half the recommendation on the bottle. After deciding to grab a test kit, my level was as high as the test kit registered. Now after a couple months no longer dosing, it still has not come down. I've found that the 2 part is more than capable at keeping up with the minor elements as well as alk & ca. If you read the specs on your 2 part, you may see it actually includes some of the other things your manually dosing, at least my 2 part does.

Also, fwiw, I've noticed no color changes, growth changes, or any other differences since I stopped manually dosing iodine. The reason I had suspected a need for it is due to keeping a large amount of red grape caulerpa in my fuge rather then chaeto, as well as a shrimp & other inert rich system.

 

[650-IS350]

Its been said that a healthy system and stable, if the Z's and P's strong enough can get past pox, the less healthy ones will die off, but the rest of the healthy colony will continue to replace the dead ones. But that's not the case for most. Congrats and lovely looking COLONIES

 

[acro-ed]

Trigg,
I agree that the responsible thing to do is actually test the Iodine levels. I have never actually tested for that. I have about a dozen peppermint shrimp and a handful of hermits and they all seem to molt regularly and stay robust and full of eggs, so I feel that is a good indicator that it is not too far out of balance.

My two part does not have any other trace in it. I am using straight Calcium Chloride and Sodium Carbonate. My mag is a Mag. Chloride/Mag. Sulfate 5:3 blend. If your two part has trace in it then that would explain why dosing extra Iodine may not be necessary.

I agree that I have not seen any visible difference when I dose it; it is really just something I have done for a long time so I figure I should keep at it.



650-IS350,

Your comments are sort of why I wanted to post this example. If a healthy colony gets pox, and the weakest polyps die, and then the pox "disappear" and the colony is healthy and growing immediately afterward.... isn't this prospectively a good thing?

I say that somewhat sarcastically (since we simply don't ever want it in our tank at all), but if the colony is able to sacrifice/cull the weakest polyps and then return to a healthy state, there may be other implications here.

One hypothesis could be that the colony was able to fight off this condition because it was otherwise healthy and had enough "strength" to fight the bacteria/pox.

Another hypothesis could be that zoas naturally harbor within them multiple types of bacteria in addition to their necessary zooxanthellae. The bacteria could be a natural defense mechanism to cull the weakest polyps (conserving energy in some manner) in response to an adverse condition (whether that be chems out of whack, chemical warfare from another coral, etc.).

I am not in a position to carry out a scientific study, but one could be done by starting with multiple healthy colonies from the same mother colony that are not exhibiting symptoms of pox and deliberately stress them to try and trigger an event. The stressors could then be removed or kept in place to see if the pox disappear or get worse.

I guess my point is that we know "zoa pox" is seemingly contagious, yet there are instances where it does not spread and no action is taken and the colony returns to a healthy state. Simply put, getting zoa pox is not a fatal endgame. It would be helpful to know what "helps" the pox go away "naturally."


Thanks,
Ed

 

[A. Grandis]

Grandis,
To answer some of your questions...

I am not measuring the Iodine levels. I shoot a "squirt" directly out of the bottle into my overflow about once a week. Highly scientific, I know. lol. When fragging zoas (and everything else) I use Lugol's in a little acrylic box that I cut/mount things in.

As for food, I make my own frozen food. It is a coral food/fish food all in one. It is the only thing I feed. I feed once per day in the evening. I would say the consistency is akin to "Rod's Food" or similar. It is a mix of fresh wild caught seafood (usually locally sourced; i.e. Gulf caught): scallops, shrimp, fish (usually cobia or redfish), and then I add pureed spinach and peas, powdered oyster eggs, cyclopeeze, fish eggs, rotifers, mysis, liquid plankton blend, vitamin blend, amino acids, and a ton of shredded dried seaweed (mix of nori, purple, and brown types). Getting the ratio right is a little tricky to get the desired consistency, but when I'm done I freeze it into flat packs and then chop it into 1"x1"x0.25" squares.

I do not target feed anything; I just throw 2 cubes into my 120g and 1 cube into each of my frag tanks.

Other chemicals I dose besides the standard "3" are Iodine/Iodide, Potassium, Strontium, minor/trace element mix, and when I've done a lot of chopping or something goes awry I shoot the Brghtwell Restor in there that I mentioned earlier (using the same scientific method as the iodine).

Keep in mind that most of the supplemental dosing happens only about 1x a week, and the dosers take care of the standard "2" part. The Mag I just dump straight into my sump about 1x per week also.

Thanks!
Ed

You're not alone!
I'm very "scientific" with my iodine dosing, since the old times!!
I use Seachem's iodide and squirt about 1-2ml per week.
If algae shows a bit I kinda think the iodine should be less.
The skimmer supposedly removes lots of iodine too.
The many polyps "consume" it and therefore there is no worries about overdosing.
I never had problems, so...
I'm not imposing others to do what I do either!! Just the truth here.

Thanks for the details about feeding.
You're not the only one that does that way. Others have reported great growth and reproduction rates with broadcast feeding for many years.
I target feed the polyps and that way I keep the system cleaner. If I broadcast feed the system, my fishes will get most of the food anyway. I prefer to target feed the zoas dry coral foods.

I also use magnesium, strontium here and there and the Restor. All "scientifically".
The buffer and calcium are mostly for the coralline and to keep params stable, and they are added through dosing pumps.

Congrats on the colony!

Grandis.

 

[650-IS350]

I think by you weeding out the dead, dying and infected polyps also greatly added to their survival.

I usually do that with polyps that are infected by fungus, after peroxide treatments, I cull the dead dying and un healthy specimens. Brake off the Healthy polyps and move them to another side of tank and chuck the bad ones. They healthy polyps usually do better, only in a few occasions that the colony still managed to die off after, maybe I didn't do a good job at cutting out the bad ones and successfully cleaning off the good colony of fungus.

 

[A. Grandis]

Talking about "fungus"...
I just posted this in another thread:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21027639&postcount=20
From:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=604324&highlight=fungus+grandis
The other thread:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598559

But "zoa pox" and the "zoa fungus disease" are probably totally different pathogens, of course. I know hydrogen peroxide works for some of the "fungus", but I don't think it works for zoa pox. Am I wrong?

Grandis.

 

[650-IS350]

No peroxide for fungus and unwanted algae on the plugs.

Only thing I've seen good for Pox is furan2 as its for gram positive and negative right?

 

[A. Grandis]

Yep! As far as I know Furan2 is the one to use for sure.

Grandis.