Round 2 - Hawaii Collection Ban

[the808state]

Sorry if this is a repost...

It seems Snorkel Bob is at it again in Hawaii after his first failure on introducing bag limits on Hawaiian fish.

Here is some info on the new attempt which will essentially put a stop to all collecting in Hawaiian waters.

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2009/lists/measure_indiv.aspx?billtype=HB&billnumber=191

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2009/lists/measure_indiv.aspx?billtype=SB&billnumber=75

discuss...



My opinion FWIW...

I am all for conservation, don't get me wrong. What bothers me here is there is no evidence, facts, or valid research noted in any of Mr. Witner's attempts.

I know divers locally that have been diving for over 30 years in Hawaiian waters. One in particular has told me in the last few years he is amazed at the number of fish out there. "More fish than i've seen in years" as i was told.

It could be more of a personal vendetta toward Mr. Witner after his public attempt to disgrace aquarium keepers.

This article: http://www.seashepherd.org/news-and-media/editorial-070814-1.html

He goes to say...

We must 1) stay on point, avoiding rhetoric or emotion & 2) keep a soft touch-no hostility. We want to convert home hobbyists, not get them ****ed off in a name-calling exchange. We want to shame them gently. I think of the internet pedophiles lured into the kitchen where the MSNBC cameras are rolling so the world can see them-they hang their heads, knowing their appetite is so wicked. Aquarium keeping is similarly shameful, but the perpetrators must be treated with understanding and help toward rehabilitation.

Pedophiles!? Please...

I will send videos of my Hawaiian Cleaner Wrasse eating mysis and flake food and if the bandit angle is so over fished why is the cost still up around the $1000s of dollars?

808

 

[Beaun]

I find it amuzing that you said he uses no evidence or "valid research" when your point uses a testimonial from a few people who have seen "more fish than I've ever seen in years"...very scientific.

But to the point. I feel that limits are nessisary on ANY fishery, no matter what the purpose or how sustainable it has been in years past. Almost every major fishery in the world is overfished. We need to be overly cautions about fish populations and our harvesting of the resources. Every fish population has a tipping point and we need to have some sort of regulation on them. Having none is just inviting a "tragedy of the commons". If that means paying 50 bucks instead of 30 for a fish, then be it. Thats the price you pay for ensuring the long time success and flourishing of a species, not just its survival.

 

[AuroraDrvr]

Too many Hawaiian Natives earn their livings off of the Aquarium trade, for this to pass.

 

[Rossini]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14305904#post14305904 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by AuroraDrvr
Too many Hawaiian Natives earn their livings off of the Aquarium trade, for this to pass.

such a shame that these natives will loose their livelihood when in 'x amount of time' its all fished out.

I dont know anything about this particular case,but I think its time that people started listening to what the marine ecologists reccomend not what the fishermen say. as we all know where that will lead.

 

[terimar]

Snorkel Bob is no marine biologist! He's a dive tour operator. His last attempt was defeated in part due to work from real marine biologists.

 

[Rossini]

I never said he was?

Thats very interesting. Is there anywhere I can have a look at what these marine biologists concluded?

 

[greenbean36191]

It doesn't matter what Snorkel Bob is if what he sees reflects reality. Last go-round he tried shooting from the hip and just assumed people would take his word that fish stocks were in bad shape. The DAR guys said not so fast, but they hardly have a slam dunk case that things are going great either.

There's very little hard data on the health of Hawai'ian ornamental fisheries and most of what has been done has been fairly ambiguous. The fact that the testimony of "real marine biologists" got the bill blocked shouldn't be construed to mean that it's a well managed fishery. If Bob actually tried, he would have no problem finding "real marine biologists" and fisheries managers to support his side or at least argue that the evidence does not show that the Hawai'ian fishery is well managed.

 

[Beaun]

In the end its going to be up to government officals from the DEC or FWS that do the research and make the decision, not outside groups or "experts" of any level.

 

[terimar]

I know what you mean Greenbean. OJ Simpson got experts to "prove" he didn't kill anybody. Expertise is available to anyone willing to pay for it, regardless of the facts. I just think that if we as a free society are going to tell our members that they can't do something, it had better be for a damned good, objectively verifiable reason. Lacking that any restrictions are morally unjustifiable in my value structure.

 

[greenbean36191]

Expertise is available to anyone willing to pay for it, regardless of the facts.

You seem to be implying that there's more certainty on the issue than there is. We're not talking about dishonest shills representing either side here. There's a legitimate lack of data to assess the health of the fishery- which is one of the major points of contention with the way the bill is written.

I just think that if we as a free society are going to tell our members that they can't do something, it had better be for a damned good, objectively verifiable reason. Lacking that any restrictions are morally unjustifiable in my value structure.

That would be nice, but in the real world that's a pretty unrealistic standard for management decisions unless long-term, high-quality data already exist. It usually doesn't. Collecting it from scratch isn't quick or cheap either. DAR already has laws on the books requiring monthly catch reports from collectors, but they've been notoriously bad at enforcing these rules because they don't have the money to do it. Even if you could get the funding to gather the data you don't always have the time to sit around and wait for a clear answer to come in- and it's hard to tell whether you do or don't beforehand.

It's also important to remember that these fish and reefs are a shared resource. They belong just as much to Bob and other Hawai'ians as they do to collectors. Is it morally justifiable to ignore their concerns and allow another (much smaller) subset of users to potentially deplete the shared resource just because no one has the data to prove how valid those concerns are?

 

[greenbean36191]

FWIW, based on the data that is out there and my own experience diving and collecting in Hawai'i over the past 10 years I think the aquarium fishery there is in serious need of regulation. Last time I was there I was in the water ever day for a month and I certainly didn't see "more fish than I've ever seen."

However, I'm not a fan of Bob and I don't support the current bill at all. Last year's attempt wasn't perfect, but the original version was closer to what needs to be done. One of the things we have to keep in mind in management projects is trying to balance different uses. This year's bill doesn't seem to make much honest attempt at that. I would be surprised if it passed anyway.

 

[SALT WATER CRAZ]

I think I will just keep my mouth shut after reading this statement that was in that article.


:uzi: >>> Aquarium keeping is similarly shameful, but the perpetrators must be treated with understanding and help toward rehabilitation.

 

[terimar]

Bob has no interest in a regulated harvest. He wants an outright ban. Did you read some of the comparisons he made in his first go round?And I don't mean to imply that there's any certainty at all. I mean to say that until there is certainty no govt agency should pass a law restricting its citizens. On any subject.

 

[Beaun]

To demand certainty in any science related field is simply ridiculous, its not going to happen. There is no such thing as 100% certainty in biology, especially such a huge field such as marine biology. That being said, an all out ban on havesting is never going to happen, especially if the DEC is involved. They are usually very good at weighing the conservation of a species/ecosystem, and those who use those resources.

 

[terimar]

Last time I worked in a lab certainty was what science was all about. Sorry to hear that's not the case any longer!