Saddleback Butterfly Lympho or Ich?

[Deinonych]

Mr. Ostercamp, my 9th grade English teacher comes to mind - he would frequently say to students "The best part about advice is you don't have to take it, but my advice to you is..."

I have not been in the hobby as long as many, but I recall one occasion when I had a velvet outbreak in my QT after getting some new fish. I lost all the new fish, but was VERY glad they were in a QT, not a DT.

I can only speak for myself, but any advice or answer I give is with the sole intent of helping either the original poster or others who may be following the thread, not to lecture, scold our tout my superior knowledge. The joy in this hobby comes from the success of a beautiful tank; As Tuskfish said, there is a long line of people who wish they had quarantined, and many posters here dealing with wipe outs of their DT. Every time I see one of those posts, my heart sinks both for the hobbyist, and for the loss of life. I think many share that sentiment, even if it comes across as being 'preachy' at times.

+1

QT is really not a big deal. I don't understand why so many eschew it. Not only does it allow you to treat for disease, it also provides a stress-free environment for fish to get used to the foods you feed without competition. Also, many retailers use hyposalinity in their tanks, and a QT allows you to match that salinity for better acclimation. I've had several fish die in QT as well. I was not happy about it, but better they pass in QT than in the DT (like you said).

 

[Dcash88]

Tuskfish
Thank You for your opinion, I agree for the most part. In fact I can also only think of one hardcore hobbyist besides myself in my local club that does not advocate qt with every fish. I am not against qt in any way, I actually qt many probably even most of my fish; however, I evalute the pros and cons each time then make my decision. Whenever talking to someone new to the hobby I tell them most people recommend you qt every fish, I do this because statistically it makes sense and because so many people advocate it. I am not going to claim to have read or even know every decent book on the hobby but I do agree the ones I have read advocate qt. I personally wouldn't blame it for the high turnover, I would blame that on many people's need for instant gratification which leads them to do things before they are ready for it or have done their homework on it.


Sleepydoc
Sounds like your 9th grade teacher was a smart man, at least he understood that he was just giving his advice and that his opinions are not facts. I have not been in this hobby as long as many either but about 8 years and have had very few problems with disease. Except with
seahorses which I qt every time but they are sometimes fickle. I imagine if i had more disease i might be more strict about qt, who knows maybe i will have an outbreak and change my mind. It seems like you have great intent, and I would only want to help others as well. I would be happy hearing advice in the manner you describe. It just seems like if you don't share the main stream opinion you do get sarcasm, lectured, talked down to, and told what to do. I know you did nothing like thar but others did and to me that is different than giving advice

Deinonych
I agree it is no big deal, I do it when I believe it is what is best for the animal. I disagree that it is a stress free environment but I respect your opinion. I agree that it is often good to qt shy or fickle feeders to get use to your food, generally this is the main reason I qt butterflies but since they were the only ones in there I didn't find it necessary. My retailers don't use hypo in their displays and when they order me something the water they come in from the distributor is not hypo either so I just drip acclimate them to match the salinity if I'm not going to qt.

 

[Deinonych]

Out of curiosity, why do you not consider QT a stress-free environment? I see this mentioned from time to time from others, and I have never seen a good reason given.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Out of curiosity, why do you not consider QT a stress-free environment? I see this mentioned from time to time from others, and I have never seen a good reason given.

Well put. I've often wondered if equating a QT with stress was a real concern or an easy excuse. A QT is the most stress-free environment I can imagine. A fish doesn't know, or care, the difference between PVC pieces and rock. Fish certainly don't need other fish to feel comfortable.

 

[SDguy]

It just seems like if you don't share the main stream opinion you do get sarcasm, lectured, talked down to, and told what to do. I know you did nothing like thar but others did and to me that is different than giving advice

Not sure if you are referring to me, but in case you are, I will say that I didn't do any of those things to you. Regarding "telling you what to do", I apologize that my quick typing on a phone came across that way. Here, let me type it the way I meant it...

"IMO, one should ALWAYS QT a butterfly fish because IME if there is any disease present, parasite or otherwise, they WILL get it, and often succumb to it."

 

[Dcash88]

Sorry for slow response just started another job to pay for some student loans that are coming up and have been really busy!

Deinonych
I agree with you that depending on the fish you can make a qt a stress free environment. IME most people including myself have relatively small qt tanks, and IME the more space you give a fish the less stress it will have (to an extent). Now this is not always a concern especially for small fish but some larger fish or big swimmers appear stressed to me in smaller tanks. This can obviously be avoided by having a larger qt tank, but I personally do not have the space for it. Judging by the majority of qt tanks I see and read about most others don't either. Of course I have seen adequate sized qt tanks and if you have the means/space that is great. There are some other reasons for specific fish but the next person covered some of them so I am going to give those reasons below.

MrTuskfish
I agree with your premise that a fish does not know the difference between pvc and rock but that does not mean it doesn't impact them. Even though they don't know the difference they do know the difference between food and no food. Live rock has natural food items that pvc does not such as pods, sponges, or tube worms (as I am sure you are aware). IME some (certainly not all) fish do much better when able to pick natural food items from the live rock or around the tank.

IMO the amount of hiding spots created by a few pieces of pvc is not close to the crevices below and between the rock. So while they can likely find a place to hide it does not seem as secure as the vast majority of places in the display. I mean I cannot even get some of my fish out of the display without taking much of it apart and I can certainly get any fish out of qt. So in my mind the level of comfort or security provided by the pvc is minimal.

I disagree with the statement "fish certainly don't need other fish to feel comfortable". Again this depends on the fish and in many, even most, cases I agree with you. But there are some fish that school and IMO they feel more secure with other fish around. I have also had the first fish in the tank be very skiddish until I add the second fish. In addition I have had and read about fish that have trouble feeding until they are with other fish and see them feed.

To me the bottom line is that none of us are in a fishes head and cannot know what they are thinking. We can only assume we know what makes a fish comfortable by its behavior. From what I have observed I perceive certain fish to be stressed in a qt tanks and more comfortable in a display.

To me a qt is a great thing most of the time but I look at each individual fish and the circumstances around it. Then I make what I see as the best decision available to me.

sdguy
I was not referring to anyone in particular, I generally put the persons name before my comment if it is directed at any one person. Someone else made a sarcastic and demeaning comment about a moorish idol.

I accept your apology regarding telling me what to do. However you did do some of those things even if was not your intention. Intentions to me are not worth much. People with great intentions can do terrible things and it does not make them okay. Telling someone what to do when advice on the topic wasn't asked is talking down to them. It is dismissing their opinion as inferior and saying your opinion is the only right one, so you must know better then them.

Either way I was not referring to you in particular or any one person for that matter. Rather I was just referring to the attitude of this thread and other threads on this site. I have read many threads on this site that do the things I mentioned to people for pages because they have different opinions.

Your statement that a qt is not more stressful than a dt is also an opinion, a debated one. In general the re type of your statement is much more appreciated to me and I respect your opinion in it.

 

[Misled]

So let me give my opinions, and I'll run before I get blasted. I'm one of the QT crowd. I've learned to QT everything. I have a tank for fish and a tank for corals. I won't get into much as I would just like you to read this. Something else to think about is you asked for opinions when you posted your question. You don't have to answer me.

 

[billsreef]

My opinion, as a Marine Biologist who has worked as professional aquarist and aquaculturist in research labs for over 20 years....there is not a single fish that isn't better off with a properly set up and run QT. I've seen lots of disease issues in display tanks and research labs from lack of QT, never seen any issues due to a properly set up QT. The key is properly set up...something too many are often too lazy, or unwilling to do. The laziness or unwillingness of someone to properly set up a QT is not a reason to claim QT is more stressful than not QT'ing.

 

[SDguy]

I accept your apology regarding telling me what to do. However you did do some of those things even if was not your intention. Intentions to me are not worth much. People with great intentions can do terrible things and it does not make them okay. Telling someone what to do when advice on the topic wasn't asked is talking down to them. It is dismissing their opinion as inferior and saying your opinion is the only right one, so you must know better then them.

To be honest, I really cared that I may have offended someone by the way I quickly posted on this forum, since I know full well that after this many years, I may be a little less lengthy in my replies. But quite frankly, your response here is completely offensive to me. You insultingly equate my simple and helpful comment about the need for QT with butterflies with such grandiose and dramatic commentary about people with good intentions doing "terrible things"? Wow, that's harsh, and unbelievable...

I think we'll both be served quite well with you on my ignore list.

 

[SDguy]

double post

 

[Dcash88]

misled
Thank you for your opinion and the article, I have read it before, but still think its a valuable read. No need to run, most of the blasting comes from the other direction . I really do not think I have blasted anyone for there opinions, if I have I apologize. I think I have actually been rather welcoming to opinions while others have not. What I was blasting was lack of tolerance to other opinions. I thought about how I asked for opinions in my original post before I made my last post, then went back and read my original post, finally concluded that I asked for opinions on if this was lymph or ich, not qt or no qt.

billsreef
I agree with you and think I alluded to that in my last post. If you can have a properly set up qt for every fish that you get than your right I think a qt would always be beneficial. I do not think that it is always a matter of being lazy to have a properly set up qt. IMO 80% of fish do great in a standard qt the other 20% need something special (those numbers are just random approximations to illustrate my point). I think many people do not have the space or means to accommodate a properly set up at for the other 20%. Possibly mine and your opinion on what a properly set up qt for this other 20% is, but to me it is not practical to accommodate. I suppose this could be a equated to unwillingness as you put it and I might agree. However I am not a marine biologist or doing studies, I am a hobbyist and do this as a form of fun/relaxation. Making a qt process that can comfortably house every fish I want to keep in my home would take away from a lot of this enjoyment. In my mind I am doing the best that I reasonably can and until I see a negative impact on my animals from this (which I realize many have already seen) I will continue. My claim is only that a standard qt is more stressful to some fish not all, this is why I qt most of my fish. I completely agree with you that this can be overcome with a properly set up qt for those "special" fish; however, in many cases including mine people just don't have those set ups.

sdguy
My response to you was intended to be on the same level that I found your original response to be. I wasn't equating your statement, rather dictation , to a terrible thing, just making a point. To me intentions, regardless of the scale, are pretty invaluable.

I took your apology as, telling me you didn't do any of those things, then apologizing for doing one of them?, then saying why it didn't really count because that's not how you intended it.

I will say that I did not take your apology as genuine and thought you meant what you wrote the first time. I did think you were trying to be helpful, what offended me is what I perceived as lack of respect for my opinions and decision making process. As it appeared that my opinion was so quickly dismissed and replaced with the "right" opinion, your opinion. If that is not the case and was not your intention than I apologize for my reaction.

I am relatively new to this forum, I have read through it a lot but not been a active member very long. As such I am not aware of an ignore list, how to use it, or exactly what that implies. I would be interested to learn though.

On a side note
My apologize for such a reaction to this thread. In addition my apologize for allowing myself to get so side tracked. As soon as tuskfish asked me about qt I new where this thread was going as so many have before. I was dreading going through the same old discussion again especially when I have read through it numerous times. I have such a negative reaction to this type of response because even before I started posting on this forum I noticed the herd mentality. On any given thread it seems like as soon as something comes up that is not the current status quo or popular idea the offender is "beaten", so to speak, into submission. It was tiring reading this time and time again especially when it was off topic.

In conclusion
Thank you for all of the helpful responses, and I appreciate all your opinions. Hopefully this issue can be put to rest and although I agree with about 90% of what was said it seems that this is an all or nothing type of debate so hopefully we can just agree to disagree.

 

[billsreef]

From a hobbyist perspective, I don't find introducing common and easily preventable parasites into my display tanks to be the least bit enjoyable. The time, effort, and hassle of setting up a proper QT detracts much less from my enjoyment of the hobby than dealing with ich, ammyloodinium, flukes, etc., etc., in my display tanks. From the professional perspective, it's not about enjoyment, but the needs of not risking significant investment of time and money.

As for QT'ing some but not all fish, that is like playing Russian Roulette. Eventually that cylinder is going to be loaded. The Disease Forum is full of people of that have played that game and pulled the trigger on the loaded cylinder (disease carrying fish). It's not really a matter of opinion, but one of fact. Do you want to deal with disease in your display tank or not. As for the "20%" of fish that need something more than the "standard" QT, perhaps the wise aquarist that isn't willing to put forth the effort should consider not acquiring one of those "20%".