Have to agree with vacuuming the substrate. No NO3 or PO4 to worry about, but lots of Cyano on sand bed, would clean it off, and within the hour I'd see it spotting back up. Last 2 weekends I siphoned the sand, and it's gone. Some nice black water came out in some areas, and I didn't lose too much sand.
Sand Bed Vacuum Test - Phosphate Liberation?
- Thread starter LouH
- Start date
Reefin' Dude
New member
removing the waste organic material removes the chance for inorganic N and P to be produced.
whether or not this is a good thing all depends on the must have organisms in the system. some require amounts of available inorganic N and P, while others fine it toxic. the reverse is also true.
the amount of siphoning of detritus should match the desired levels of the environment wishing to be emulated.
G~
whether or not this is a good thing all depends on the must have organisms in the system. some require amounts of available inorganic N and P, while others fine it toxic. the reverse is also true.
the amount of siphoning of detritus should match the desired levels of the environment wishing to be emulated.
G~
brad65ford
New member
Bring up a bump to a good thread with some questions on my current system, hopefully you guys can help or give suggestions.
My 40g Fusion has 3-4" sand bed (black Hawaiian sand) its been running for 6-8 months and I haven't touched the sand (no vacuuming). I've watched the n03 increase from 30 to 50 ppm in the last two month regardless how many water changes and crappy Ghost skimmer (doesn't do squat) I've done. So thinking the only solution would be carbon dosing and we are 3 weeks in on Vodka dosing which we are up to 1ml a day now but haven't seen any decrease in no3 yet. Read this thread yesterday and it just makes so much sense it would be silly not to start this practice if it helps. End up starting yesterday doing a 30% water change but with vacuuming out the sand bed best i could with out getting any blast of nasty water in the rest of the water column. I'm assuming its to early to measure but the no3 was the same today 50ppm :-( Hopefully it comes down. Also i'm thinking this siphoning practices would be ideal for shallower sand beds then what i have mine seems to be a mix between normal and deep which would be hurting me. Any thoughts are more then welcome guys. Oh and whats amazing is though the corals aren't growing like weeds they sure aren't dieing except for trumpets which i've always had a hard time with.
My 40g Fusion has 3-4" sand bed (black Hawaiian sand) its been running for 6-8 months and I haven't touched the sand (no vacuuming). I've watched the n03 increase from 30 to 50 ppm in the last two month regardless how many water changes and crappy Ghost skimmer (doesn't do squat) I've done. So thinking the only solution would be carbon dosing and we are 3 weeks in on Vodka dosing which we are up to 1ml a day now but haven't seen any decrease in no3 yet. Read this thread yesterday and it just makes so much sense it would be silly not to start this practice if it helps. End up starting yesterday doing a 30% water change but with vacuuming out the sand bed best i could with out getting any blast of nasty water in the rest of the water column. I'm assuming its to early to measure but the no3 was the same today 50ppm :-( Hopefully it comes down. Also i'm thinking this siphoning practices would be ideal for shallower sand beds then what i have mine seems to be a mix between normal and deep which would be hurting me. Any thoughts are more then welcome guys. Oh and whats amazing is though the corals aren't growing like weeds they sure aren't dieing except for trumpets which i've always had a hard time with.
brad65ford
New member
Bring up a bump to a good thread with some questions on my current system, hopefully you guys can help or give suggestions.
My 40g Fusion has 3-4" sand bed (black Hawaiian sand) its been running for 6-8 months and I haven't touched the sand (no vacuuming). I've watched the n03 increase from 30 to 50 ppm in the last two month regardless how many water changes and crappy Ghost skimmer (doesn't do squat still don't understand how i'm not pulling skimmate with this high of n03) I've done. So thinking the only solution would be carbon dosing and we are 3 weeks in on Vodka dosing which we are up to 1ml a day now but haven't seen any decrease in no3 yet. Read this thread yesterday and it just makes so much sense it would be silly not to start this practice if it helps. End up starting yesterday doing a 30% water change but with vacuuming out the sand bed best i could with out getting any blast of nasty water in the rest of the water column. I'm assuming its to early to measure but the no3 was the same today 50ppm :-( Hopefully it comes down. Also i'm thinking this siphoning practices would be ideal for shallower sand beds then what i have mine seems to be a mix between normal and deep which would be hurting me. Any thoughts are more then welcome guys. Oh and whats amazing is though the corals aren't growing like weeds they sure aren't dieing except for trumpets which i've always had a hard time with.
My 40g Fusion has 3-4" sand bed (black Hawaiian sand) its been running for 6-8 months and I haven't touched the sand (no vacuuming). I've watched the n03 increase from 30 to 50 ppm in the last two month regardless how many water changes and crappy Ghost skimmer (doesn't do squat still don't understand how i'm not pulling skimmate with this high of n03) I've done. So thinking the only solution would be carbon dosing and we are 3 weeks in on Vodka dosing which we are up to 1ml a day now but haven't seen any decrease in no3 yet. Read this thread yesterday and it just makes so much sense it would be silly not to start this practice if it helps. End up starting yesterday doing a 30% water change but with vacuuming out the sand bed best i could with out getting any blast of nasty water in the rest of the water column. I'm assuming its to early to measure but the no3 was the same today 50ppm :-( Hopefully it comes down. Also i'm thinking this siphoning practices would be ideal for shallower sand beds then what i have mine seems to be a mix between normal and deep which would be hurting me. Any thoughts are more then welcome guys. Oh and whats amazing is though the corals aren't growing like weeds they sure aren't dieing except for trumpets which i've always had a hard time with.
Nano sapiens
New member
1/2 - 3/4" sand bed is all that's needed for nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria to flourish. Nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria actually exist in close proximity to each other (termed 'coupled') in the aerobic substrate layers with the denitrifying bacteria taking up residence in the sand grain's lower oxygen micro-pore environments. If you need more detailed info, take a look at 'The Reef Aquarium, Vol 3, pgs. 260-261' (Delbeek/Sprung)
Problems with denitification occur when advective flow into a substrate is impeded such as when heavy detrital deposits occur. The bacteria rely on flow to bring nutrients, especially carbon. With a decent amount of substrate that is regularly cleaned, as well as sufficient carbon and flow, nitrate should not rise to high levels even in a well stocked and fed reef tank.
Nitrate reduction from chronic high levels can take time, but just keep at it. Don't forget that most of the detritus will collect under the live rock due to advective processes, so it's a good practice to occasionally remove a base rock and vacuum under it (not always possible, I know).
Hope that helps...
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brad65ford
New member
Thank you for the advice, sounds good on the depth of the sand just not sure how i'm going to get there from 3-4" yet. Woke up this morning to a very very cloudy tank, so far the corals look ok no dead fish either. Not sure the tank liked me doing the siphoning, hopefully its just a simple bacteria bloom, I'm wondering if i should run some carbon for a few days to help?
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Nano sapiens
New member
Most of the bacterial action happens in the first 1/2-3/4", but that doesn't mean you can't have a thicker sand bed. For a shallow bed, 1 to 1-1/2" is what I've used with no issues long term.
If vacuuming a substrate for the first time (or if the substrate hasn't been vaccumed for a good, long while) it's adviseable to vacuum only small sections at a time (usually done with a water change), not the whole thing all at once.
brad65ford
New member
I'm on it Nano sapiens, today I removed another corner of the tanks sand. I can't believe how much I put in I believe it was 3 20+ lb bags in a 40g Fusion, at this rate another few more 4g water changes with the 1" dai hose should get me down to 1 1/2" all around. Slow process, hopefully it doesn't crash the system/shock the corals to bad. Tank is sure cloud and I know there isn't any good way around it.
What type of sand do you guys recommend for idea siphoning?
Newstead
New member
Only had nano reefs for 3 1/2 years, so still a newbie, but I have seen the difference it makes to vacuum a sandbed. Our first salt tank was a Biocube 14 and I never vacuumed the sand, thinking that was correct (we had freshwater tanks for over 20 years). I battled algae for 3 years. When it sprang a leak in March we replaced it with a 29 and I began vacuuming the sand after month 3. The difference in nuisance algae has been amazing and so far, my corals are doing much better. The clown pair started spawning after the move - whether due to better conditions, the larger area or who knows what?
brad65ford
New member
there needs to be more people that discuss this since the practice of keeping the sand bed (regardless how deep) is said to be left alone and when p04 or n03 is high start carbon dosing, bio-pellets, macro algae, ATS etc etc... If is all it takes to keep nutrients in check it should be discussed more since there are many more people that don't do it then do.
Nano sapiens
New member
1. Part of the awareness problem goes back to the height of the DSB era when touching the sand bed was taboo. Unfortunately, this same 'no touch' philosophy was too often carried over to shallow sandbed reef aquaria.
2. Some reefers do not want to perform regular maintenance and would rather throw in a bottle/bag of something or other to fix the issue, at least temporarily.
Due to 1 & 2, a large industry has developed promoting and selling products to counteract the overabundance of nitrate and phosphate that many reefers have erroneously come to believe are inevitable and simply a part of the hobby. While these products can have their uses in certain situations, for the average reef tank regular and proper maintenance is really all that is needed.
CStrickland
New member
I use Carib sea special reef flake aragonite. It's like normal sand, you can see bits of gravel and shell if you get close up, but from a normal distance it just looks sandy. I've got some natural sand from my fav beach too, it's really fine and I lose a 1/2 cup or so each week. That's ok tho, gives me an excuse to go get some more
Once you get regular with vac'ing it's not bad to suck a bit of sand out each time and add a pound or two every couple months. It keeps your phos sink steady to always have fresh binding sites. You can put a filter sock where the water enters your sump to help with the cloudiness, if you don't want to bother ordering one special for this there was a TOTM a while back where the guy was in Japan and resorted to using actual socks (presumably clean) so I guess any fabric will do in a pinch
I sewed mine out of felt. As far as people talking about vacuuming, there's also a difference which forum you are on. RC seems more into gfo and worms, trt is more about vacuuming, my local club is pretty old-school dsb/plenum. It's nice to visit diff places and learn other ways, there's not one "right way" to run a tank. For me vacuuming makes a lot of sense and it's working great so far, but for others it's easier to run reactors and stuff. I'm cheap and I get a lot of gratification out of putting a little elbow grease in, so it suits my personality to dive into the science and stir up the sand. For others it's funner to set it and forget it. Few of us will keep our tanks for more than a few years, so the far away specter of old tank syndrome is not much of a deterrent, it's just how you feel like managing nutrients today.
My 2 cents
ReefChasing
New member
I've had a deep sand bed for years. My tank was looking great for about 2 years. Crystal clear water, coralline and corals growing like crazy. Despite having a lot of flow on the sand bed and tons of life in it my tank crashed with a algae bloom around the 2 year mark and I lost all fish. The tank was left alone with only corals for about a year and a half before moving. The tank has been restocked with fish but it looks like old tank syndrome and coralline algae is unable to grow. I've been using a dual BRS reactor with a cup and a half of GFO and Carbon replaced every 2 weeks for about a month and a half. This past weekend I threw in the towel and started vacuuming the sand bed. My days of leaving the bed alone are over. I'll keep everyone posted on my progress as I continue to vacuum.
Green Chromis
New member
:fish1: Hi all. I use to siphon my 3 to 4 inch sand bed during every water change, now I stir up a portion of the sand bed using a turkey baster and a power head, filtering the water thru 2, 200 micron felt socks before it returns to the display tank. You would not believe the amount of gunk that these socks accumulate while doing this. When I siphoned the sand, the waste water would go directly into a floor drain, and I would lose all the life that I siphoned from the sand, while using a turkey baster and power head to disturb the sand and releasing all the crud accumulated in it most of the life remains in the tank, and what does get out is collected in the first sock, and I can return them to the system. My question is do the worms and other life get replenished fast enough if I just vacuum the sand bed and let it go into the floor drain, and does it really matter if I lose the life in the sand bed that happens when vacuuming? :fish1:
ReefChasing
New member
I've done three separate 16 gallon water changes on my 130 gallon in the last week and I can still see tons of worms and life in the sand. I was always so worried about vacuuming out life from the bed but now I'll happily exchange fresh crystal clear salt water for crap water and a few lost worms. I don't think you'll have any problems losing too much life from the sand bed by vacuuming. The micron sock sounds like a good idea but I'm not sure if any bad stuff could make it through the sock and return to the tank.
SS_Sean
New member
I've had my display up and running for two years now. I've been struggling with my SPSs and have detectable phosphates. I've also been struggling with cyano outbreaks, and at this point I have cyano in certain spots all the time. I've tried treating with chemiclean, and moving my lights upwards. I've also started carefully feeding the fish with the powerhead off to ensure the fish are consuming the vast majority of the food introduced.
I've never disturbed my sand bed in the tank. When new it was about 4" deep. It's now down to around 3.5". I'm going to go ahead and start vacuuming. I'll do as others mentioned, and just do 10% at a time, unit the whole thing is done over a period of months, and that way the buildup of detritus wont effect the critters. I'll report back on the results.
I've never disturbed my sand bed in the tank. When new it was about 4" deep. It's now down to around 3.5". I'm going to go ahead and start vacuuming. I'll do as others mentioned, and just do 10% at a time, unit the whole thing is done over a period of months, and that way the buildup of detritus wont effect the critters. I'll report back on the results.
salty joe
Active member
Sounds good.
Boom
New member
Love to see old threads revived! I have never had more than 2 inch sand beds in my tanks. I must say, though, I had a short period where my aragonite sand became aprostate and nitrate magnet. I tried all the "tricks" mentioned above to control nutes but was losing the battle to rebalance my system.
Finally I vacuumed ALL the sand in less than an hour with ZERO water changed. The end of the hose went into a home made filtersock, in my sump and kept the return pump on. I wish I had taken before and after pics just 24 hours later! Yes folks, coralline started showing growth again that fast! Phosphates went from 4 to .25, nitrates from 20 to undetectable after 48 hours. Because of the old adage "nothing good happens fast in a reef tank" I chose this method to avoid changing vast amounts of water and a big swing in my other tank parameters.
The next week, I removed most of the "clean" aragonite sand and replaced it with well washed pool silica sand and increased the flow. Now I have sand drifts around the rocks and bare bottom everywhere else.
I also use the turkey baster to "fluff" around and under rocks. Since implementation about 6 months ago, I've actually vacuumed my little sand drifts twice
Finally I vacuumed ALL the sand in less than an hour with ZERO water changed. The end of the hose went into a home made filtersock, in my sump and kept the return pump on. I wish I had taken before and after pics just 24 hours later! Yes folks, coralline started showing growth again that fast! Phosphates went from 4 to .25, nitrates from 20 to undetectable after 48 hours. Because of the old adage "nothing good happens fast in a reef tank" I chose this method to avoid changing vast amounts of water and a big swing in my other tank parameters.
The next week, I removed most of the "clean" aragonite sand and replaced it with well washed pool silica sand and increased the flow. Now I have sand drifts around the rocks and bare bottom everywhere else.
I also use the turkey baster to "fluff" around and under rocks. Since implementation about 6 months ago, I've actually vacuumed my little sand drifts twice
Reefaholic1978
New member
Vacuum my whole 2 year sandbed twice on Thursday because no matter how much gfo I used my phosphate would not fall below 0.08 ppm and tested today and it fell down to 0.04 and have noticed growth on a stunded pink millepora. I also did the filter sock at the end of the hose so I went at it (worried) but 3 days later I have no regrets and have seen improvements on my sps. I will vacuum the bed with every water change from now on.
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