Scuba equipment ?
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SeaJayInSC
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Yeah - uh - not a good idea. Been there. 
Even 7 mil suits - even 14 mil farmer johns - aren't much good against THAT kind of cold.
You'll also be the weakest link on the dive team.
Rent a drysuit - my bet is that they'll have something for you, even if it's not a DUI...
The best suits for ice diving I know of are hot water suits - commercial suits that require a connection to the surface to supply hot water. But if you want to be untethered, a really great-fitting drysuit is your best bet... With a p-valve, of course, 'cause you're gonna have to go the moment you hit that water.
Even 7 mil suits - even 14 mil farmer johns - aren't much good against THAT kind of cold.You'll also be the weakest link on the dive team.
Rent a drysuit - my bet is that they'll have something for you, even if it's not a DUI...
The best suits for ice diving I know of are hot water suits - commercial suits that require a connection to the surface to supply hot water. But if you want to be untethered, a really great-fitting drysuit is your best bet... With a p-valve, of course, 'cause you're gonna have to go the moment you hit that water.
SeaJayInSC
New member
Nah - I've got a feeling that once you start diving with these other guys, you'll realize that you're far from the "weakest link." If you're ice diving wet, though, that'll change.
"Dry certified?" I know there's a Dry Suit Diver specialty, but it's certainly not a requirement... It's no more a requirement than a Boat Diver specialty is a requirement to dive from a boat.
That said, perhaps that's how your LDS rolls... They won't rent a drysuit without first making you take the specialty. That's their call... But you may be able to find another LDS that doesn't have that rule.
All of that said, dry diving is considerably different from wet diving... Mostly because of the "bubble" inside the suit with you. So - it'll take a little practice and getting used to, but it's certainly not something that is a legal or even agency requirement.
Truth be told, I've seen you dive... And while I think it'd take some getting used to for you (make sure you're not diving solo the first time you dive dry - the bubble can do some pretty weird things to you) I don't think it's beyond your current scope of diving. A few dives into it and you'd be as nailed as you are when you dive wet.
The real key is to minimize the bubble by bleeding all of the air out of the suit before you dive. When I don a drysuit, I pull the neck seal back and squat to get all of the air out. Then, when I enter the water, I do the same (bleed the neck seal). You want ALL of the air out of the suit, but you'll have to add a little (one more hose on your reg set) to take the squeeze off. Avoid the temptation to put too much air in your suit, as it'll cause you trim issues as the "bubble" moves around with your movements.
Essentially, you want the tightest suit you can wear (with your thickest undergarment) and still reach back over your right shoulder and be able to manipulate your tank valve. Remember, right pinky finger (not palm or thumb) against your right ear.
...Which is the same as adjusting the shoulder straps on your new rig - you want the top of the top tank strap to be right at the shoulder of the tank, then adjust the shoulder straps to be as low as they can go and still give you access to being able to turn your valve on and off. This, of course, is in the water - it's normal to not be able to reach your valve when you're standing topside with the rig on.
After you're done adjusting your shoulder straps (it'll take several dives), adjust the crotch strap to be as tight as possible without causing a situation where you can feel it when you squat while wearing the rig out of the water. Essentially, you should never really know it's there - it's just that your rig is nailed down, doesn't move, and never rides up even when your wing is full of air and you're floating at the surface.
When adjusting the waist strap (snug, but don't kill it - you'll know what's good after a while) make sure that the waist strap buckle is on your RIGHT hip - not in the middle. The reason will be obvious later. For now, just know that keeping it over there keeps it free from the crotch strap.
...Anyway, it'll take a little practice, but there's no reason why you can't go ahead and try dry diving.
If you're ice diving wet, though, that'll change. "Dry certified?" I know there's a Dry Suit Diver specialty, but it's certainly not a requirement... It's no more a requirement than a Boat Diver specialty is a requirement to dive from a boat.
That said, perhaps that's how your LDS rolls... They won't rent a drysuit without first making you take the specialty. That's their call... But you may be able to find another LDS that doesn't have that rule.
All of that said, dry diving is considerably different from wet diving... Mostly because of the "bubble" inside the suit with you. So - it'll take a little practice and getting used to, but it's certainly not something that is a legal or even agency requirement.
Truth be told, I've seen you dive... And while I think it'd take some getting used to for you (make sure you're not diving solo the first time you dive dry - the bubble can do some pretty weird things to you) I don't think it's beyond your current scope of diving. A few dives into it and you'd be as nailed as you are when you dive wet.
The real key is to minimize the bubble by bleeding all of the air out of the suit before you dive. When I don a drysuit, I pull the neck seal back and squat to get all of the air out. Then, when I enter the water, I do the same (bleed the neck seal). You want ALL of the air out of the suit, but you'll have to add a little (one more hose on your reg set) to take the squeeze off. Avoid the temptation to put too much air in your suit, as it'll cause you trim issues as the "bubble" moves around with your movements.
Essentially, you want the tightest suit you can wear (with your thickest undergarment) and still reach back over your right shoulder and be able to manipulate your tank valve. Remember, right pinky finger (not palm or thumb) against your right ear.
...Which is the same as adjusting the shoulder straps on your new rig - you want the top of the top tank strap to be right at the shoulder of the tank, then adjust the shoulder straps to be as low as they can go and still give you access to being able to turn your valve on and off. This, of course, is in the water - it's normal to not be able to reach your valve when you're standing topside with the rig on.
After you're done adjusting your shoulder straps (it'll take several dives), adjust the crotch strap to be as tight as possible without causing a situation where you can feel it when you squat while wearing the rig out of the water. Essentially, you should never really know it's there - it's just that your rig is nailed down, doesn't move, and never rides up even when your wing is full of air and you're floating at the surface.
When adjusting the waist strap (snug, but don't kill it - you'll know what's good after a while) make sure that the waist strap buckle is on your RIGHT hip - not in the middle. The reason will be obvious later. For now, just know that keeping it over there keeps it free from the crotch strap.
...Anyway, it'll take a little practice, but there's no reason why you can't go ahead and try dry diving.
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tgreene
Reefer
Ahhhh, thanks man... I guess I was just always under the impression that because it is such a different type of aparutus, that it required a certification of it's own.
I personally wouldn't try a dry suit for the first time under ice however, especially with a new rig that I need to first get accustomed to (and I may well have a dubles rig by then too), because that is just too many different "learning curves" to contend with all at one time, and under such extreme diving conditions.
I guess I'll just sit this one out, then hopefully by next year Ill have my own drysuit and already be familiar with diving it.
-Tim
I personally wouldn't try a dry suit for the first time under ice however, especially with a new rig that I need to first get accustomed to (and I may well have a dubles rig by then too), because that is just too many different "learning curves" to contend with all at one time, and under such extreme diving conditions.
I guess I'll just sit this one out, then hopefully by next year Ill have my own drysuit and already be familiar with diving it.
-Tim
SeaJayInSC
New member
Yeah, that's a pretty good call, I think - no sense in bringing a "practice" situation to a "game day" dive.
Besides, it'll give you something to look forward to next year.
Ice diving is a hard overhead environment - meaning that you should be diving doubles, no question. Are they allowing people to ice dive in singles?
Doubles, dry... And with a line on a reel (or spool if pressed) leading to the surface. To me, it should be treated as a cave dive... But even more advanced, because of the cold.
Each diver should plan on a regulator failure - my bet is that 10% of them will fail in waters below the freezing point.
Scary? Only if they're not prepared and practiced. Diving dry... That's a comparatively easy thing to handle.
Besides, it'll give you something to look forward to next year.
Ice diving is a hard overhead environment - meaning that you should be diving doubles, no question. Are they allowing people to ice dive in singles?
Doubles, dry... And with a line on a reel (or spool if pressed) leading to the surface. To me, it should be treated as a cave dive... But even more advanced, because of the cold.
Each diver should plan on a regulator failure - my bet is that 10% of them will fail in waters below the freezing point.
Scary? Only if they're not prepared and practiced.
Diving dry... That's a comparatively easy thing to handle.
tgreene
Reefer
They will all be diving singles with the possible exception of 1 guy who is the only person around here that is a Tech diver and dives doubles... I'm hoping that once I have my doubles rig, he will become my dive buddy.
I bought a 160' finger spool just to have on hand and to use w/ my SMB. The Ice Divers will be diving tethered with a rope handler on the surface, rather than stringing their own lines... This is what I have been told anyway.
-Tim
I bought a 160' finger spool just to have on hand and to use w/ my SMB. The Ice Divers will be diving tethered with a rope handler on the surface, rather than stringing their own lines... This is what I have been told anyway.
-Tim
SeaJayInSC
New member
Wow. That's a seriously bad idea. I mean, who would enter a cave - buddy or not - with a singles rig? And that's just a cave.
Ice diving has all the same dangers, but add bitter cold, numb fingers, and suspended judgement.
I'm surprised that your LDS isn't smarter than to encourage people to ice dive in a singles rig.
That's great... For open water. Under the ice, an SMB won't do you any good.
Of course, you've already said that you're not ice diving (in fact, you may want to question EVER diving with these guys), but just to let you know...
Wow.
Yeah, that's really, really, really a bad idea. What's that for... So they can retrieve the bodies?
Dude, I can already tell that you're definitely not "the weakest link" with this group.
ANY TIME you let someone who is not THE DIVER have control (via tether) over THE DIVER, it's a really, really bad mix. What happens when the diver's at 100 feet, and somehow the tender gets the impression that the diver wants to be pulled out (or if the tender simply decides that the diver's been in there long enough)? You've got it... Instant DCS. Or embolism. Or burst ear drum. What happens if the diver needs to stop to equalize? He can't... And the tender never knows that he's bursting the diver's ear drums until it's too late.
There is simply NO situation where a tender, who knows nothing about what's going on with the diver, should be allowed to have control over the diver. Period.
I served for years with our local marine rescue squadron... And thus trained under DRI - Dive Rescue International. One of their big mantras is to ALWAYS tether the diver... And that someone topside should be "in control" of the dive.
The entire philosophy is totally flawed - written by control freaks who are not divers. They are people who are too scared to dive, but want to be "in charge." They feel that it makes them superior to the cool guys - the divers.
Those that adopt the practices taught by DRI are dumb enough to be led around by the blind. Worse than the blind... The blind with personal issues.
The ONLY reason a diver should EVER be tethered is if his gas is surface supplied... And in that case, a two-way communication system needs to be used. And any tender who is found pulling on a tether is fired on the spot (they are to take up slack but NEVER to pull, yank, signal, or otherwise interfere with the diver and his decisions).
...But what monkey see, monkey do - which is where DRI comes in. They see commercial divers using tethers, and they do it too. The practice is moments from death for any individual on the submerged end of that tether... Usually tendered by a clueless volunteer high school dropout who simply doesn't know any better. That's why he's a TENDER and not a DIVER, after all.
Ice diving, with singles and tethers? Dude, you're really a lucky man to have decided not to go with them.
I would, from this point on, be on the serious lookout for other incredible acts of stupidity when it comes to diving.
They aren't even diving stage bottles or even ponies? No redundant gasses at all?
Wow. Just wow.
Hope nobody gets unlucky at the wrong moment...
What's next... Parachuteless skydiving - while wearing a bulletproof vest? Helmetless motorcycle racing - while wearing a safety harness? Clifftop downhill skiiing - while wearing a jock strap and cup?
Morons.
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yousmellsfishy
New member
I never thought of ice diving like that but now that you mention it.......
tgreene
Reefer
Hey, I'm just telling ya what I know which is based solely upon what I've been told... Our LDS does not lead the Ice Dive, but rather it is handled and conducted at a site around Kankakee, IL
As for the tender and tether thing, I watched the teams during their training on our last day at GA, and found the complexity and interactivity of the entire system to be truly fascinating.
In regards to the SMB, yea I know that it can't be used under ice, but it most certainly can be used when I'm diving in the Caymans during the cruise in March. That's why I bought it.
-Tim
{EDIT}
Yep, all singles.....
As for the tender and tether thing, I watched the teams during their training on our last day at GA, and found the complexity and interactivity of the entire system to be truly fascinating.
In regards to the SMB, yea I know that it can't be used under ice, but it most certainly can be used when I'm diving in the Caymans during the cruise in March. That's why I bought it.
-Tim
{EDIT}
Yep, all singles.....
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yousmellsfishy
New member
Ever see the movie, Never Cry Wolf?. Bring a rifle.
tgreene
Reefer
And ironically, I have. From my very limited perspective, it would appear to be a less forgiving overhead, in less forgiving conditions...
What I do recall however, is that the rope tender limits the maximum distance/depth in such a manner that you have x number of feet to work with in any way that you choose, be it vertical or horizontal... Somewhat similar to cavern diving which has a 120' total limitation from surface, meaning that a cavern with a sustained 40' bottom will allow you to have an 80' penetration so long as you never lose contact with visible light.
-Tim
SeaJayInSC
New member
Yeah, sorry for flippin' out... (Recomposing)
Just wow.
Yeah, but see, that's the issue... Taking something as simple as diving and turning into something complex... I mean, you're already having to deal with a new site, a drysuit, and the bitter cold... Why now add "complexity" onto it?
Why would the diver need to be tethered? What problem does that solve?
If it was me, I wouldn't be able to resist the urge to untie myself from the tether and tie it around the biggest rock I could find. Then I'd yank on the tether about 20 times and stand back and watch the fireworks.
Cave line, on the other hand, is great for finding your way back from where you came. In your case, Tim, you could go 160 feet - no more. Simple. As you swam, you'd unreel. This way, the line is always lightly taut and very unstressed. If you penetrated past the sharp edges of a cave or wreck or submerged car or something, it wouldn't be a problem.
If, instead, you're dragging a tether with you and it's the tender that's letting the line out, when you pass a sharp edge, you're dragging the line across the sharp edge. Move the wrong way, and it's easily severed.
Aside from the obvious issue for the diver (now he has no direct link to the surface - which in ice diving may be a 3' x 3' hole in the ice in a huge, murky, low-vis lake) from the tender's perspective, the line suddenly goes limp... And when he pulls on it, the line comes up with nothing but a severed end. Now there's a paniked tender, and a diver that has no idea yet that he's in serious trouble.
What's worse, philisophically speaking, is that the tender now has no CONTROL over the diver. Ack!!!
Your reel and your spool (and especially your spool) are your friends, Tim... There should never be any other line in the water but them... Unless it's an anchor line holding your dive boat in place. Anyone who suggests otherwise is stuck in "surface logic" mode and is NOT thinking like a diver.
Dude, do me a favor... I love ya, and you're my buddy and I don't want to see anything happen to you. Don't even stand next to these guys - I don't want "stupid" to rub off on you. You're too good a diver to be associated with these guys.
Maybe you should go watch them ice dive just to see how it ISN'T done. Make sure to keep your cell phone handy - with 911 on speed dial.
Might even want to pack a body bag.
Just wow.
Yeah, but see, that's the issue... Taking something as simple as diving and turning into something complex... I mean, you're already having to deal with a new site, a drysuit, and the bitter cold... Why now add "complexity" onto it?
Why would the diver need to be tethered? What problem does that solve?
If it was me, I wouldn't be able to resist the urge to untie myself from the tether and tie it around the biggest rock I could find. Then I'd yank on the tether about 20 times and stand back and watch the fireworks.
Cave line, on the other hand, is great for finding your way back from where you came. In your case, Tim, you could go 160 feet - no more. Simple. As you swam, you'd unreel. This way, the line is always lightly taut and very unstressed. If you penetrated past the sharp edges of a cave or wreck or submerged car or something, it wouldn't be a problem.
If, instead, you're dragging a tether with you and it's the tender that's letting the line out, when you pass a sharp edge, you're dragging the line across the sharp edge. Move the wrong way, and it's easily severed.
Aside from the obvious issue for the diver (now he has no direct link to the surface - which in ice diving may be a 3' x 3' hole in the ice in a huge, murky, low-vis lake) from the tender's perspective, the line suddenly goes limp... And when he pulls on it, the line comes up with nothing but a severed end. Now there's a paniked tender, and a diver that has no idea yet that he's in serious trouble.
What's worse, philisophically speaking, is that the tender now has no CONTROL over the diver. Ack!!!
Your reel and your spool (and especially your spool) are your friends, Tim... There should never be any other line in the water but them... Unless it's an anchor line holding your dive boat in place. Anyone who suggests otherwise is stuck in "surface logic" mode and is NOT thinking like a diver.
Dude, do me a favor... I love ya, and you're my buddy and I don't want to see anything happen to you. Don't even stand next to these guys - I don't want "stupid" to rub off on you.
You're too good a diver to be associated with these guys.Maybe you should go watch them ice dive just to see how it ISN'T done. Make sure to keep your cell phone handy - with 911 on speed dial.
Might even want to pack a body bag.
SeaJayInSC
New member
Haven't seen it, but my bet is that it's a pretty great movie with a fantastic message...
SeaJayInSC
New member
{EDIT}
Yep, all singles.....
...With no tethers.
...But with no spools or reels, either.
Perhaps the ice can easily be broken through? I mean, if there's no overhead, then it's not really ice diving...
...And there would be no need for tethers, doubles, spools or reels.
Maybe that's it? (Please tell me that's it...)
I sure hope that's it - there's not one of them that's got a reg setup for overhead diving... Not even one long hose. And the only reg set that we can see - presumably the instructor's - has a yoke first stage. One good whack on any overhead, and no mo' breathing gas...
Interestingly, the regulator that he (the "instructor") is diving is an Apeks XTX200... The only battery-operated first stage in the industry. Yeah, talk about making things overly-complicated, with a HUGE failure point...
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yousmellsfishy
New member
Haven't seen it, but my bet is that it's a pretty great movie with a fantastic message...
There's a scene where a guy's walking across a frozen lake in Alaska with a heavy backpack and falls through the ice. He can't find the hole in the ice so he gets his rifle that was strapped to the backpack and pokes a hole through the ice. If you ever see the movie, try to hold your breath from the time he falls through the ice until the time he gets the hole big enough to get his head through. seems like forever.
SeaJayInSC
New member
Yikes.
I had a dream about six months ago that I was exploring a new cave and came across a humanlike new life form. There were males and females and they were intelligent enough to wear different articles of clothing. They didn't speak, but they sorta "signed" and used skin color like a squid, and there was obvious communication going on not only between them, but between them and me.
They were smaller than humans - maybe three or four feet long on average, and had a sort of winglike apparatus protruding from their backs - kinda like angels or fairies or leprechauns. They even had one of the caves lit up with artificial light.
The concept of finding new life isn't completely unheard of - it's happened before when a team of divers came up in a trapped bubble, miles from the surface, which turned out to be made mostly of methane. Inside the "room" were two life forms - one plant, one animal, that had a symbiotic relationship - the plant fed on the fecal matter and chemosynthesis, and the animal (roachlike) fed on the plant.
Anyway, in the dream I got so tied up in being fascinated by the creatures that I overstayed my gas... And suddenly realized that there was no possible way for me to exit the cave. When I realized this, I still had like 500 psi in my tanks - meaning that I had some time to think about it, too.
I remember sucking my last breath, then I woke up in a cold sweat. Boy, was I happy to be safe and sound in my bed!
Not being able to breathe... That would be one horrible way to go.
I had a dream about six months ago that I was exploring a new cave and came across a humanlike new life form. There were males and females and they were intelligent enough to wear different articles of clothing. They didn't speak, but they sorta "signed" and used skin color like a squid, and there was obvious communication going on not only between them, but between them and me.
They were smaller than humans - maybe three or four feet long on average, and had a sort of winglike apparatus protruding from their backs - kinda like angels or fairies or leprechauns. They even had one of the caves lit up with artificial light.
The concept of finding new life isn't completely unheard of - it's happened before when a team of divers came up in a trapped bubble, miles from the surface, which turned out to be made mostly of methane. Inside the "room" were two life forms - one plant, one animal, that had a symbiotic relationship - the plant fed on the fecal matter and chemosynthesis, and the animal (roachlike) fed on the plant.
Anyway, in the dream I got so tied up in being fascinated by the creatures that I overstayed my gas... And suddenly realized that there was no possible way for me to exit the cave. When I realized this, I still had like 500 psi in my tanks - meaning that I had some time to think about it, too.
I remember sucking my last breath, then I woke up in a cold sweat. Boy, was I happy to be safe and sound in my bed!
Not being able to breathe... That would be one horrible way to go.
yousmellsfishy
New member
Thread officially hijacked.
Sorry, OP. :sad2:
Sorry, OP. :sad2:
tgreene
Reefer
slapshot
Active member
Dove the ice twice. Once wet :eek2: once dry. Don't do it wet. I was 19 years old and had to stand in the shower for 2 hours after to feel my bones again. It is a really cool dive if the sun is shinning. Really an experience laying on the bottom and watching your bubbles hit the ice. Having said that and tried that, no more! :wavehand: We went with singles, we just did not stray too far from the hole. For sure should have used doubles. Young and stupid!
I am old now (50), and anything under 80 is too much for me. :lol2:
I am old now (50), and anything under 80 is too much for me. :lol2:
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