Second try

D

DavidToronto

New member
Hi fellow aquarists,

So I had a little catastrophe a couple of months ago with a filter change and now have moved on and recycled the tank. Now the tank is almost 8 months old and has live rock in it since the start.

Tank is 30g, I took out the filter a couple of weeks ago as advised here and have an oxygen pump running until I buy the quieter replacement.
latest stats:

Kh - 200
Ph - 8
nitrate- 5
nitrite - 0
ammonia -.25

So I put a couple of pyjama cardinals there a on last Saturday and they were ok the whole week, one didn't eat as much as the other but they seemed fine. I also put a couple of turban snails and 4 blue leg crabs with them. Then this saturday I put in a scooter blenny and a skunk eater shrimp. I did a water change on sunday. This morning they blenny was climbing on the walls and hiding in the sand but I researched and found it was normal, the cardinals were a bit more active than usual swimming near the top of the water more than normally. When I came back this evening the two cardinals were dead, the blenny seems unwell or exhausted, the crustaceans are fine. I realized the salt content was low after the water change, around 19 and the temperature was low also around 70f (it was really hot yesterday and I lowered the heater since I thought that's why they were swimming high). Now I added salt to 21, the temp is at 75. the blenny still laying around and panting...Not sure what to do:sad2::deadhorse1::fish1::uhoh3:

Also, there was a pest control team in my apartment today, so I covered the aquarium for most of the day, hopefully no fumes got in or they didn't get scared of the dark...
 
Sorry to hear about the loss. It appears you have an ammonia problem. Ammonia is very deadly in the reef. Some even believe that .25 ppm you should remove sensitive inverts and do mass water changes. For more reading search "Ammonia and the Reef Aquarium " by Randy Homel-Farley.

Imo you are adding to much to fast and not letting the bacterial population balance out before you add more. Which is partially where the ammonia is coming from. A general rule is 1 or 2 fish then wait a month before adding anything else. I'm also guessing you have no QT. That will catch up to you in the long run.

How did you recycle the tank? When did the finish cycling?
 
Hi, David.

I'm glad you're trying again and not giving up! I remember my first 30gallon tank was a complete disaster. I agree with Tisbe in his assessment in your chemistry. It's very important to get your ammonia and nitrates as low as possible. Your tank is small, regular water changes are the the best way. If I were you, and I am no expert, I'd do 5 gallons every other day for the next two weeks. Make sure you're not over-feeding either!

Also, please be sure to test your phosphate ASAP. Pest algae feeds off high nitrate levels and once you have it, it's really hard to get rid of.

GFO is pricy but a good phosphate remover.

Good luck!


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Thanks for the replies!
The ammonia has been at that level for me everytime I added any fish to it, I don't seem to go below .25 and yet my first 2 damsels survived 2 months...saying that I only did water changes once a week...with the recent start I have been doing water changes every 2-3 days...what confuses me is that they are ok for a while with that concentration and then all of a sudden die...:/
Tisbe you are probably right that I added too much too soon, i was a bit too eager...damn...the cycling was at least 72 days if not more with filter then took it off, because I moved in between, although i kept my cycled water, I didn't 'pretend feed' the tank however. In terms of QT, no, I discussed it with a friend who is an experienced aquarist and he just said to give them a 'fresh water bath' to kill parasites, I know this might not be ideal but it worked for him and tried it...I don't think that did anything terrible this time around...
Thanks Malx, I appreciate the sympathy, it sucks...they seemed pretty healthy...Ok will do many water changes, hopefully the blenny will survive...maybe I was feeding them more than i should because the cardinals weren't really eating a lot and I was worried they would starve...I've never tested phosphate before, is it like the other test (i.e. tube or strip?) GFO is a brand? thanks, sorry for the essay...:)
 
If your using an API test for ammonia I always had a hard time distinguishing between zero and 0.25.

It could be multiple things giving issues:

I would not rule out the pest guys.

could be the salinity swings and temp fluctuations.

Adding to much to fast.

What type of flow do you have? could have an affect on the oxygen levels

Could be and illness. A FW dip can help alleviate some symptoms but usally does not get rid of everything if the fish are sick.

How were the fish acclimated.

And FWIW your scooter has a high likelihood of starving in that size tank.
 
Hey dude. Don't worry about why your fish died. Sometimes they just die. Let's fix your water chemistry. Remember that Ammonia is like food for your bacteria colony. That's what it eats. If you add too much too fast, your bacteria can't convert it all. The death of your fish does not help because that releases ammonia back into the water when they die. Anything that essentially "rots" in you tank causes Ammonia, then Nitrite, than Nitrate. I refer to these as "nutrients."

Live rock and live sand is suppose to help support the colonies that your bacteria can live on, however, it can also hurt. Especially sand. How deep is your sand bed? If it's more than an inch, it may be contributing to high nutrient levels.

What are your power heads like? Are there any dead spots in your tank? A dead spot is an area where water has a hard time flowing. These areas generally are a place that nutrients can collect.

Give me a count of the fish you have and what sizes they are. Also give me the dimensions of your tank. Maybe you don't have enough surface area to support the amount of life you have? Gas exchange is important too.

What kind of filtration do you have? Do you have filter socks? Do they get dirty? Filter socks are good to catch large debris of uneaten food, fish poop, etc. BUT (there's always a but) if you don't wash them out frequently, the large particles end up rotting in the sock. You end up putting nutrients back into the water as water runs through the filter--essentially doing the opposite of what you want--washing nutrients with your water.

Phosphate tests are like any other yes. Phosphate is like HGH for algae. So make sure you get that in check too if you have a problem. You might as well understand that now while you're working on the other things. If you have a phosphate problem, it's easy to fix.

GFO will remove it: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-b...l?sku=000602&gclid=CNPp_Kb34MwCFcdehgod-IMP5w

For the record, I have made every one of those mistakes above before.



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I'm with max, don't worry about the fish lets fix the water and I too have made many of the mistakes so lets have you avoid the ones we've already made. I believe your problem is that you really needed to feed the tank a little of something to keep the bacterial population healthy during the last cycling period. What you saw with the fish being OK and then not is exactly what ammonia in the tank does. They even commonly measure acute toxicity by how much it takes to kill half the tank over 96 hour. Ammonia in the ranges from .09 to 3.35 ppm is deadly. Living Damsels are also not a good marker for a healthy tank. Many people (I do not) use/used Damsels to cycle their tanks because they can tolerate conditions most fish can't. What killed the first fish is hard to speculate, but I would be ammonia was you problem this time.

The fresh water dip can only kill what is outside the fish and even then not all things. Ich for example burrows into the fish so no medication treats it when it's in that stage. The meds work when it is in the free swimming stage. The TTM for ich breaks the life cycle by not letting the babies reinfect the fish. QT is the single cheapest & easiest thing to do to prevent a major problem getting into the display tank. Read the never ending posts about people quitting the hobby because of ich, flatworms, aptasia, etc.... in their display and you will see how important QT is. I bet you also can't find a tread that talks about QT being a waste of time. Ok enough of the QT soapbox, but it will save you in the long run.

Since you say the ammonia has always been this way. I would look to add some live rock (1-2lbs) from the LFS or get a cup of sand from a fellow reefer who has a clean tank. This will help bring back the bacteria needed to process the ammonia. We need to get that ammonia down to zero.

Post a response to gone_fishing and malx's questions and we will see what we can do.
 
I just had a thought. What type of water do you use? Tap, RO/Di, Distilled? Do you know if your water contains chloramines? When these break down, one of the things it breaks into is ammonia. That could be where it is coming from.
 
Hi,

Thanks for the advice!

GoneFishin:

I am using API, but it seems pretty clear to me that it's not 0...

What's the best way to keep salinity consistent, asides from buying an expensive auto top up? I usually add it after adding the water, and it takes me a 2-3 times to get it to dissolve (I used containers with small lids for water before so it was more convenient, now I got buckets...) I guess I should do it in the bucket...how much is it per 5 gallon approximately? also I try to keep it between 21-23 but was told that for invertebrates it should be 24...

If I keep different types of fish and crustaceans should I just keep the temp at 75?

Water flow not sure, i inherited the oxygen pump from a friend with no box, just the machine and a tube, plugs into socket, called "Elite 799" I have the small tube in one of the corners, I know marine don't usually like bubbles but I could afford all at once so have this for now. Btw I thought to attach a carbon diffuser piece to the tube to spread the flow, will that work, or silly?

The acclimatization: the freshwater was the about the same as the aquarium, since I was doing the dip, I didn't think (or knew how) to acclimatize them anymore...so I just used the net from fresh water to tank after 30 sec. That didn't seem to bother them too much though. I threw out the water from lfs in case it had some disease (paranoid from last time)

Scooter died overnight...(the reason I got him was cause the PJ's weren't eating a lot and food would just lay around, the first day he seemed to eat a lot of it...)

I didn't think it was illness because it happened pretty quickly and with all...
 
I don't think your fish are dying due to lack of flow but an air stone is not going to be good enough. You need a power head. The water you use is important too. I'm not sure if more live rock is the answer. We should want on that. The reason is, I feel, if he can't keep his current population of bacteria healthy, more live rock is going to mean more rock with dying things on it that will release more nutrients into the tank.

77 is too low, go to 77.8 if you can, slowly.....

The more consistent you are the better.

For salinity, 1.025 is the number. Let me know about my other questions!! They are important.


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Malx:

The sand is not more than an inch

My water flow is the rear left corner at the bottom, and I have three sets of live rock, left right and middle, I guess there could be a dead spot somewhere on the bottom right for example but I can't really say for sure, the water seems to be moving on the top all over. (also as mentioned, it's just an oxygen pump not the silent water mover or what it's called...)

Right now all fish are dead, I had two pj cardinals and added a scooter blenny. Now there are 2-3 snails, 3-4 hermits, and a a skunk cleaner shrimp. the tank is 30 g

No filter socks, never had them. took out the filter 3.5 weeks ago, only live rock filters now. Should I get the filter socks? in the lfs?

Ok will get the phosphate test this week and GFO if needed

It's good to know that I'm not the only one:)!

Thanks!
 
Tisbe:

Ok, will do quarantine, will need to read more about it, about from I know the best is to get a small tank and put my old filter in it...what's the cheapest way?

Ammonia was zero when there was no fish or invertebrates, at the end of the cycle...I still have some sand of my own, can use that?

Oh and I am using tap water with conditioner, I am not sure if there is chloramine but the conditioner I use is supposed to take care of that..

Cheers!
 
You probably should buy a test for your tap water after you use the conditioner and understand if you have chlorine or chloramines.


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I would suggest getting a ro di unit and adding some live bacteria to start cycling your tank again also I would add another inch of sand just my thoughts. Short and sweet
 
I am guessing you live in Toronto and if so they do use chloramine. Note the summary in the article below . Which water conditioner are you using?
http://dontai.com/wp/2013/01/28/goldfish-and-toronto-water-chlorine-and-chloramines/

The cheapest way to QT is first start with planning on putting fish only in your DT tank for a little while like you are currently doing. A clean up crew is ok, just keep to your plan to hold off on the corals for now. For fish QT, go to craigslist or a thrift store get 10 gallon tank that you will never put corals in since you do not know what medications the previous owner put in it. You may even find someone willing to give one away for free. I would buy a new heater and then you just need something to move the water around a power head (aka. the silent water mover) or your old filter is OK if you never plan on using it on a tank with corals in it. If you do I would get a cheap power head, used is fine. If you see a disease on the fish while in QT then you can then treat with medication. Put a regular lamp next to the tank so you can observe the fish. The TTM is less stressful on the fish but costs a little more since you need two complete tank setups and the ability to replace the entire tanks water every 72 hours for 2 weeks.

You will also need to add at least one power head for you display tank, two is better before you put more fish in. The reason is, this helps increase gas exchange between the water's surface and air, ultimately reducing the CO2 build up that occurs during decomposing and increase O2 for the fish to breath. As far a size, look for one (or two) that will move around 20-40 times the DT water total volume each hour in your case 600 to 1200 gallons. In my 90 I push around 2400 gallons per hour. Check the video in this post to see how important internal water movement is. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2579672
 
malx said:
I don't think your fish are dying due to lack of flow but an air stone is not going to be good enough. You need a power head. The water you use is important too. I'm not sure if more live rock is the answer. We should want on that. The reason is, I feel, if he can't keep his current population of bacteria healthy, more live rock is going to mean more rock with dying things on it that will release more nutrients into the tank.

77 is too low, go to 77.8 if you can, slowly.....

The more consistent you are the better.

For salinity, 1.025 is the number. Let me know about my other questions!! They are important.


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Click to expand...

I keep my tanks at 76° F and salinity at 1.026....
I would also test some fresh saltwater with your ammonia kit, API is notorious for false readings of positive
 
Heath if you've had success with 76 I really want to hear about it. Do you keep corals and do you have a chiller?


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20160501_163542.jpg
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20160502_193527.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]No chiller,no sump,leds,no heat. I keep my house AC at 75.... this is the dwarf angel tank currently a lemon peel flame back and coral beauty..... the only filtration is a 9002 tunzi skimmer. The top picture is the wrasse tank, Dusky, black spot, blue star, and twistii. .... no sump,only filtration aquamaxx hang on the back skimmer....hth
 
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Your turn, I tend to respect more people's advice once I've seen their system.... and yes I do collect coral ,every frag was tiny when I got it
 
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