Severe velvet/ich

[stearnsek]

I've been having severe issues with velvet and ich in my 125 fo. I've been in the hobby for many years and have been able to cure this problem before but now it seems to be uncurable.

I have treated with copper in the past when I did not have any angels in the tank, but it has returned and I haven't treated with copper since, because we have had angels in the tank. The water chemistry is perfect and I've kept the salinity low around 1.019ppm when I see the ich returning. I keep the tank slightly warmer too, because hey it can't hurt with ich. I've tried everything with this tank to help rid it of ich but it keeps returning.

During the last period when it was clear, I slowly put in a French angel, imperator angel, 2 heniochus, a harlequin tusk and a purple tang, over a 2-3 month period. About a month after the fish were introduced and doing quite beautifully ich spread rampantly, killing one of the heniochus, the imperator, and the french and the second heniochus all within a week. I've treated with rid ich and shut off the UV sterilizer, protein skimmer and removed all carbon and filtering materials, that's when the first set of fish died. We have to do a 50% water change at least once a month or our nitrates will spike and kill the majority of the tank. So we did a 50% water change and started treating with kick-ich and Stability. Now our purple tang and harlequin tusk have what appears to be velvet and are in a QT.

Does anyone have any suggestions about what else to do? I'm tired of killing our fish and losing endless amounts of money in the process. Even our usual "fish guys" at the local store are dumbfounded at what's causing the ich in the tank. Any advice is welcome!

Thanks,
Erika

 

[Tin_Whistler]

If it’s a FO tank you’ll want to put all your inverts in a quarantine, and use a hyposalinity treatment on the DT. 1.008-1.010 is the range you’re shooting for, but I’d recommend closer to 1.008 so you don’t go above 1.010 due to evaporation.

Also, raising your temp won’t kill off, or slow down the ich at all. I’ve also seen Snorvich post that increasing your heat will remove or lower oxygen levels in tank. (He seems smart so I’ll trust him.) Ich will attack your fish’s gills making it harder for them to breathe in the first place, so removing air is only going to end up bad for your fish.

How did I miss the velvet part…

If it is velvet you’ll need to treat with copper to remove it, not sure what to do for that since you’ve got angels…

Do you have any pics of the affected fish at all?

 

[stearnsek]

Thanks for the info Tin Whistler. I've done my research some more and I'm starting to realize that what my issue is very well may be Flukes... I've been treating this tank for months for ich. And the only fish that are ever effected by anything are my large angels, my butterflies, and my tangs. And I also saw that a lot of threads being posted on here are from California and that their LFS's have had issues with flukes... my LFS gets their fish from California. So after spending multiple hours reading through the threads, I've started to deduce that my issue is flukes. :headwallblue: I plan on getting some Prazipro tonight and start dosing immedately. And all of our fish are in a QT now, even the ones that aren't sick and hopefully (cross your fingers) this will solve the issue!

 

[MrTuskfish]

Its hard to mistake ich or velvet for flukes. Velvet would probably have killed all your fish by now if not treated with copper. If you're seeing white, salt-like spots; its probably ich. Velvet is spots accompanied by a filmy, transparent skin. What makes you think this is a fluke problem? Flukes usually are not killers. If you had two fish with velvet in this tank, it will almost certainly wipe out all your fish unless you remove and treat ALL your fish in a QT with copper. True, Angels are sensitive to copper, but there . But most can handle copper at .30ppm, which will kill velvet. If this is velvet, you don't have much time. Velvet is exit contagious and deadly. IMO, velvet is more of a worry than ich , and more of a reason to QT all new fish. I hate to pile on, but your tank is WAY too crowded. A 125 isn't big enough for even one of many of the fish you have. The over-crowding will increase stress (IMO, tremendously in your case) and stressed fish are much more susceptible to parasites. IMO & IME; you need to do 4 things to have a healthy tank: 1.)greatly reduce your quantity of fish 2.) Get all fish into QT and treat the best you can 3.) let the DT go fishless for at least 8 weeks 4.) Use a QT, religiously, on all new livestock and research their needs before you buy. . Good luck!

 

[sandwi54]

i really hate to bash someone who is undergoing stress from dying fish and disease treatment, but you have several really serious issues.

1. your tank cannot accommodate any one of the fish you listed, except for the heniochus maybe, let alone all of them

2. lack of QT: with so many fish in such little time, one or more of them is bound to bring in some disease. it has NOTHING to do with where it's shipped from, California or not. Every wholesaler has hundreds to thousands of fish at any single time. if one of those fish has a disease, all of them have it. you need to pretend that every fish you buy has some kind of disease.

3. treatment method: as someone who's been in this hobby for many years, i would assume that you've read or heard enough about proper ich treatments. there are only three successful methods (hyposalinity, copper, tank transfer). kick-ich, rid-ich, ich-attack, etc., all do nothing. they may kill some parasites but not all.

marine angels are more delicate than other fish and usually succumb to stress and disease first. they really should be in the hands of advanced aquarists. you need to religiously follow what MrTuskfish said and get the remaining fish into a proper QT and start treatment. If you suspect you have velvet, which is unlikely given all your fish would've been dead by now, then use cupramine since it will kill both ich and velvet. if you just have ich, you may do either cupramine or hyposalinity, although i recommend cupramine since it's much easier on the aquarist and is relative safe at the therapeutical dosage.

 

[stearnsek]

For starters, I took the sick fish in to my LFS and have been speaking with them about their fish and the problems for a little while now. When they were able to see the fish today, they confirmed that they indeed have Flukes. Whereas before they told me "you probably just have ich." So now that I can treat my tank properly I will and I am.

These fish are also not fully grown, full size fish. They are smaller and are between 2" to 5". I do not believe I am over-stocking, as I have asked multiple people the types of fish and the quantity of fish I can have in my tank and these people have been in the hobby a lot longer than I have. Now yes, everyone's opinion is different, but I have seen tanks that are stocked beyond belief work just fine. I'm not saying I plan on doing the same though.

I do not believe that treating my tank with copper for ich is the best solution because following very precise instructions, I have lost angels in the past. And although chemi-pure, protein skimmers, etc say they pull it out completely, I've tested my water (I only use RODI) a year after copper treatment and have found enough copper in the system still to effect my fish. And yes, everything is hooked up and operately properly.

My fish are in a QT. So please don't assume that I am a novice and am not caring for them properly. I have treated for ich before and have successfully cured my tank of it, but now realizing that the problem is flukes, I can treat it properly.

 

[C0rp]

When all those fish each grow an inch, you'll be overstocked. Then what?

 

[sandwi54]

For starters, I took the sick fish in to my LFS and have been speaking with them about their fish and the problems for a little while now. When they were able to see the fish today, they confirmed that they indeed have Flukes. Whereas before they told me "you probably just have ich." So now that I can treat my tank properly I will and I am.

These fish are also not fully grown, full size fish. They are smaller and are between 2" to 5". I do not believe I am over-stocking, as I have asked multiple people the types of fish and the quantity of fish I can have in my tank and these people have been in the hobby a lot longer than I have. Now yes, everyone's opinion is different, but I have seen tanks that are stocked beyond belief work just fine. I'm not saying I plan on doing the same though.

I do not believe that treating my tank with copper for ich is the best solution because following very precise instructions, I have lost angels in the past. And although chemi-pure, protein skimmers, etc say they pull it out completely, I've tested my water (I only use RODI) a year after copper treatment and have found enough copper in the system still to effect my fish. And yes, everything is hooked up and operately properly.

My fish are in a QT. So please don't assume that I am a novice and am not caring for them properly. I have treated for ich before and have successfully cured my tank of it, but now realizing that the problem is flukes, I can treat it properly.

this hobby is full of people who don't know what they are doing; they just do what they want and any short term success they have is claimed to be successful. how many times have you heard someone says "i keep 10 large angels in my tank with success"? try to check on that same person two to three years later and he is likely down to one or two angels. just because someone has done it before for a few months doesn't mean there is going to be long-term success. we are all guilty of putting incompatible fish in our tanks and overstocking them when we first start out in this hobby, but some of us do it to a much greater degree than others and flat out ignore good advice from other people. this results in a lot of unnecessary deaths. i believe just because we are able to purchase a fish, it doesn't give us the right to disregard its proper care requirement. it's a living thing after all and we need to be concientious about what we do.

please read this sticky if you haven't.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1710252

please also read this article since you seem to be a large-angel lover.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/1/fish

angels are tangs are very sensitive to copper and if you follow the instructions on the bottle 100%, at the recommended dosage, you'll for sure kill a few of them. for example, cupramine recommends 0.5ppm for 2 weeks, but when i did only 0.4ppm on my french angel, she already displayed distress after 2 weeks. for angels and tangs, you must use copper at a lower dosage than what's recommended on the bottle.

 

[snorvich]

i really hate to bash someone who is undergoing stress from dying fish and disease treatment, but you have several really serious issues.

1. your tank cannot accommodate any one of the fish you listed, except for the heniochus maybe, let alone all of them

2. lack of QT: with so many fish in such little time, one or more of them is bound to bring in some disease. it has NOTHING to do with where it's shipped from, California or not. Every wholesaler has hundreds to thousands of fish at any single time. if one of those fish has a disease, all of them have it. you need to pretend that every fish you buy has some kind of disease.

3. treatment method: as someone who's been in this hobby for many years, i would assume that you've read or heard enough about proper ich treatments. there are only three successful methods (hyposalinity, copper, tank transfer). kick-ich, rid-ich, ich-attack, etc., all do nothing. they may kill some parasites but not all.

marine angels are more delicate than other fish and usually succumb to stress and disease first. they really should be in the hands of advanced aquarists. you need to religiously follow what MrTuskfish said and get the remaining fish into a proper QT and start treatment. If you suspect you have velvet, which is unlikely given all your fish would've been dead by now, then use cupramine since it will kill both ich and velvet. if you just have ich, you may do either cupramine or hyposalinity, although i recommend cupramine since it's much easier on the aquarist and is relative safe at the therapeutical dosage.

I would have to agree with this post.

 

[MrTuskfish]

For starters, I took the sick fish in to my LFS and have been speaking with them about their fish and the problems for a little while now. When they were able to see the fish today, they confirmed that they indeed have Flukes. Whereas before they told me "you probably just have ich." So now that I can treat my tank properly I will and I am.

These fish are also not fully grown, full size fish. They are smaller and are between 2" to 5". I do not believe I am over-stocking, as I have asked multiple people the types of fish and the quantity of fish I can have in my tank and these people have been in the hobby a lot longer than I have. Now yes, everyone's opinion is different, but I have seen tanks that are stocked beyond belief work just fine. I'm not saying I plan on doing the same though.

I do not believe that treating my tank with copper for ich is the best solution because following very precise instructions, I have lost angels in the past. And although chemi-pure, protein skimmers, etc say they pull it out completely, I've tested my water (I only use RODI) a year after copper treatment and have found enough copper in the system still to effect my fish. And yes, everything is hooked up and operately properly.

My fish are in a QT. So please don't assume that I am a novice and am not caring for them properly. I have treated for ich before and have successfully cured my tank of it, but now realizing that the problem is flukes, I can treat it properly.

Just curious, how did they determine your problem was flukes and what kind of flukes did they find (in the gills, body, internal)? maybe I can learn something. BTW, I'd use Cuprisorb or activated carbon to get rid of all the copper. If you treated in a DT, LR & substrate can leach copper back into the system for a long time. I love Chemi-Pure; but it isn't the greatest media to remove copper. Skimming will not remove copper at all. (To any degree---cma)

 

[Akrite]

Skimming will not remove copper at all. (To any degree---cma)

Are you sure of this? I ask because I plan to treating a couple tangs with cupramine but have been told if I ran a skimmer (Red Sea Prizm Deluxe Hang on Skimmer) that it would remove the copper and I won't be able to maintain the correct level. Running a skimmer would be great for tangs produce a lot of waste, which means more water changes.

 

[SNAKEMANVET]

Skimmers will not remove copper.Tangs will produce alot waste.Good luck with treatment

 

[MrTuskfish]

If your water parameters in any tank are really effected by 8 weeks (or so) of skimming; there is a cycle problem. Skimming is a "bonus" and a long-term benefit; not a major source of bio-filtration and using a skimmer for the short period a fish is in QT isn't going to make much difference---one way or another. I use Cupramine copper , here is their answer to the skimmer question, an other stuff concerning Cupramine:
http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Cupramine.html

 

[MrTuskfish]

Are you sure of this? I ask because I plan to treating a couple tangs with cupramine but have been told if I ran a skimmer (Red Sea Prizm Deluxe Hang on Skimmer) that it would remove the copper and I won't be able to maintain the correct level. Running a skimmer would be great for tangs produce a lot of waste, which means more water changes.

Whoever told you this is wrong .Use a skimmer if you want. If your water parameters in any tank are really effected by 8 weeks (or so) of skimming; there is a cycle problem. If you're worried about nitrates, don't. nitrates, at the level reached in a QT, are nowhere near a danger level for fish. Skimming is a "bonus" and a long-term benefit; not a major source of bio-filtration and using a skimmer for the short period a fish is in QT isn't going to make much (if any) difference---one way or another. Here is their answer to the skimmer question, and other stuff concerning Cupramine:
http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Cupramine.html