RichConley
New member
Mavgi, how far into the fitting are you pushing the airline? Is it flush, halfway, what?
Sicce pumps
- Thread starter Jayson
- Start date
About 1-2mm' , it's not cross the reducer. the different it's if you put it more in (half way) you will hear a bad noise from the air pipe , when it's 2mm in the air run more smooth.
IMO , when all the ppl put the air fitting more deep then the reducer they have more problem with the start (on some pump) because when it's more flat and before the reducer the pump have time to reach the air before the water go in and this on some pump choke the pump and you need to blow air into it .
it's on some pump not all of them when i try it on the Gen X6000 i didn't have problem , just more noise from the air pipe .
in my mod's i never saw or read more LPM when the pipe was more deep or flat.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
Well, for the record, the plumbing on the outlet of the pump is 1", and the intake is 3/4" Mavgi. Do you still think that is too restrictive? I can see that the inlet venturi might be though. Im at 5/8" which is greater than 13 or 15mm, but about 1.5" long... that distance could drop the pressure more than the 'stubby' venturi due to distance. Ill try making the reducer more 'sudden' and tank test it. But I have tried shorter venturis and never had better results. Even just a ball-valve venturi didnt get me over 20scfh.
Keep in mind, before I try these mods on the skimmer, I am trying them in the tank w/o any plumbing (and the results are the same, so I doubt that the plumbing is too narrow).
Im certain its my meshwheel.
edit: I tried dudedudedude's suggestion... er... more though. I used monowire rather than zip ties, I can see that being part of the problem, because my holes are closer to the center, inside the impeller well, the pump itself is slightly higher behind the impeller.
So I used fishing line, er, monowire. I also redid the mesh as per mavgi's suggestion. It was too thick or wide (wouldnt start), so I trimmed it, but rather than trim the diameter, I just trimmed the height. I have to twist the pump, but it starts.
Its alot quieter now, and I hit 30scfh with the skimmer's plumbing (before trying to adjust the valve). So it looks like Im on my way.
Those zip ties were what was killing me the most it seems.
Keep in mind, before I try these mods on the skimmer, I am trying them in the tank w/o any plumbing (and the results are the same, so I doubt that the plumbing is too narrow).
Im certain its my meshwheel.
edit: I tried dudedudedude's suggestion... er... more though. I used monowire rather than zip ties, I can see that being part of the problem, because my holes are closer to the center, inside the impeller well, the pump itself is slightly higher behind the impeller.
So I used fishing line, er, monowire. I also redid the mesh as per mavgi's suggestion. It was too thick or wide (wouldnt start), so I trimmed it, but rather than trim the diameter, I just trimmed the height. I have to twist the pump, but it starts.
Its alot quieter now, and I hit 30scfh with the skimmer's plumbing (before trying to adjust the valve). So it looks like Im on my way.
Those zip ties were what was killing me the most it seems.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
Okay... now I have it. Its back on the skimmer body, and with the valve, Im over 40 scfh. It seems the pump has broken in a bit and it starts fine on its own as well.
Here's why I defended my venturi... sure, its longer, but as you can see here, there is no real difference, other that I can run this external, and not have to drill the impeller cover for the air intake. Its a copy of ATI's earlier design really...
The air might have to travel a bit farther, but thats no big deal since there is no restriction, and its getting introduced at the same point as the ATI version.
The only debate in my mind is that a venturi isnt just about diameter, but length. My venturi is a bit larger (pink arrows), but its also contoured (so its even larger and then slopes down to 5/8" ID, or 16mm). But even though its larger in diameter, the length might have been what was killing it, as pressure drop due to diameter is also a function of length (a 1/2" nozzle will not drop pressure as much as say, a 3' length of 1/2" pipe... this is why you can run 1" pipe into a 1/2" nozzle at the end and still get great output, but if the pipe were 1/2" as well, you would see a pressure drop). My length, shown with green arrows, is many times longer than the ATI's. But I did bore it out so the intake was more than 5/8" even... about 3/4" actually at the intake.
Otherwise, the air and water combine in exactly the same manner and place... not that this is really important. I can now hit the same numbers even without the venturi just by adjusting the ball valve on the intake.
As it turns out, it was the zip-ties. The pump is much quieter as well now. Thanks guys. Im getting just over 40 scfh at 25 watts.
Here's why I defended my venturi... sure, its longer, but as you can see here, there is no real difference, other that I can run this external, and not have to drill the impeller cover for the air intake. Its a copy of ATI's earlier design really...
The air might have to travel a bit farther, but thats no big deal since there is no restriction, and its getting introduced at the same point as the ATI version.
The only debate in my mind is that a venturi isnt just about diameter, but length. My venturi is a bit larger (pink arrows), but its also contoured (so its even larger and then slopes down to 5/8" ID, or 16mm). But even though its larger in diameter, the length might have been what was killing it, as pressure drop due to diameter is also a function of length (a 1/2" nozzle will not drop pressure as much as say, a 3' length of 1/2" pipe... this is why you can run 1" pipe into a 1/2" nozzle at the end and still get great output, but if the pipe were 1/2" as well, you would see a pressure drop). My length, shown with green arrows, is many times longer than the ATI's. But I did bore it out so the intake was more than 5/8" even... about 3/4" actually at the intake.
Otherwise, the air and water combine in exactly the same manner and place... not that this is really important. I can now hit the same numbers even without the venturi just by adjusting the ball valve on the intake.
As it turns out, it was the zip-ties. The pump is much quieter as well now. Thanks guys. Im getting just over 40 scfh at 25 watts.
hahnmeister :
40 scfh =18.8LPM = 1133LPH
i got on it the way i show you :
52 scfh = 24 LPM = 1472LPH
this is on 8" diameter i also mod different mesh and was able to reach :
27LPM = 1630LPH let it run some day but the "venturi" it's the trick .
on the new Sicce pump thay change the venturi and they able to pick up on the pump with the controller 82scfh =38LPM=2320LPH easy i believe with a good mod it's can increase to 95-100schf with 40-45watt on the pump but to be sure 100% i will need to test it when i get the skimmer .
when you test the pump in your tank before you connect it to the skimmer in what depth high you did it and read the 40 schf?
now if you cut this pipe length on your skimmer to , for sure you will pull and increase more air .
it's depend if you want to keep it to run like that and you happy with... so it's ok , but you can get a lot more.
40 scfh =18.8LPM = 1133LPH
i got on it the way i show you :
52 scfh = 24 LPM = 1472LPH
this is on 8" diameter i also mod different mesh and was able to reach :
27LPM = 1630LPH let it run some day but the "venturi" it's the trick .
on the new Sicce pump thay change the venturi and they able to pick up on the pump with the controller 82scfh =38LPM=2320LPH easy i believe with a good mod it's can increase to 95-100schf with 40-45watt on the pump but to be sure 100% i will need to test it when i get the skimmer .
when you test the pump in your tank before you connect it to the skimmer in what depth high you did it and read the 40 schf?
now if you cut this pipe length on your skimmer to , for sure you will pull and increase more air .
it's depend if you want to keep it to run like that and you happy with... so it's ok , but you can get a lot more.
Last edited:
JCTewks
In Memoriam
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10327999#post10327999 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Okay... now I have it. Its back on the skimmer body, and with the valve, Im over 40 scfh. It seems the pump has broken in a bit and it starts fine on its own as well.
Here's why I defended my venturi... sure, its longer, but as you can see here, there is no real difference, other that I can run this external, and not have to drill the impeller cover for the air intake. Its a copy of ATI's earlier design really...
The air might have to travel a bit farther, but thats no big deal since there is no restriction, and its getting introduced at the same point as the ATI version.
The only debate in my mind is that a venturi isnt just about diameter, but length. My venturi is a bit larger (pink arrows), but its also contoured (so its even larger and then slopes down to 5/8" ID, or 16mm). But even though its larger in diameter, the length might have been what was killing it, as pressure drop due to diameter is also a function of length (a 1/2" nozzle will not drop pressure as much as say, a 3' length of 1/2" pipe... this is why you can run 1" pipe into a 1/2" nozzle at the end and still get great output, but if the pipe were 1/2" as well, you would see a pressure drop). My length, shown with green arrows, is many times longer than the ATI's. But I did bore it out so the intake was more than 5/8" even... about 3/4" actually at the intake.
Otherwise, the air and water combine in exactly the same manner and place... not that this is really important. I can now hit the same numbers even without the venturi just by adjusting the ball valve on the intake.
As it turns out, it was the zip-ties. The pump is much quieter as well now. Thanks guys. Im getting just over 40 scfh at 25 watts.
John...what if you just removed the little retaining lip from the reducer bushing and slid the 3/4" pvc in more toward the pump. then cut your beveled 1/2" down shorter, way short, just as a quick pressure boost then drop. that way, you'v got the short restriction without the flow loss, and don't have to drill and tap the volute.
I modified your drawing for a rough idea of what is in my head...you may need a little imagination to bring it into scale
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
I read you. Ill try that out. The other thing I forgot to mention was that I am not sure, but I fear that the distance from the 1/2" venturi and the intake on the pump might be too close together (on my diagram above, this would be the space noted by the red dot). The venturi could be too close to that torpedo shaped impeller support, and this could be cutting down water flow too much. Tomorrow, I will try more stuff. But if I cant get this pump to shut up a bit, I will have to use the eheim anyways... this skimmer goes in the living room, and the eheims just seem quieter to me still.
JCTewks
In Memoriam
are you sure that the impeller is fairly balanced? i know it's a silly question, but sometimes we get so single focused the we ttally overlook little stupid things
I would think that if you were at least 1/2" from the shaft support that you should have plenty of room in htere,
I would think that if you were at least 1/2" from the shaft support that you should have plenty of room in htere,
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
Well... we cant be sure that the impeller is balanced with a mesh mod, can we? FWIW, I do still have to blow air into the pump at startup... so who knows.
If my venturi is too restrictive in some way, then its possible that the noise is from that as well. So who knows. All I know is that with one combo, I hit 40 scfh 'in tank'... Ill just have to replicate those conditions on the skimmer.
If my venturi is too restrictive in some way, then its possible that the noise is from that as well. So who knows. All I know is that with one combo, I hit 40 scfh 'in tank'... Ill just have to replicate those conditions on the skimmer.
JCTewks
In Memoriam
a little off topic...but not really.
you mentioned that you though the quietone pumps were similiar to the sicce pumps. how big are the volutes on the Q1 5000 and 6000 pumps? I'm interested in a pump for a 10" X 30" skimmer i'm looking to make. that seems to be a size typically requiring multiple pumps and i''d like to do it with one pump.
you mentioned that you though the quietone pumps were similiar to the sicce pumps. how big are the volutes on the Q1 5000 and 6000 pumps? I'm interested in a pump for a 10" X 30" skimmer i'm looking to make. that seems to be a size typically requiring multiple pumps and i''d like to do it with one pump.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
Quiet one Pumps are made by Sicce for Pentair Aquatics. The impeller design and volute are the same as the PSK 2500. Now, as to if they are the same volute dimensions or what, I dont know. I know that the 3000 is the closest looking, with a 1" MPT inlet like the PSK, and it also happens to be rated at 40 watts. Now, it also has a 1" MPT outlet... so if it were to have the same volute volume.. who knows, it could be a contender.
Larger models, like the 4000 and such... possible as well. They have great inlet/outlet sizes on them.
Larger models, like the 4000 and such... possible as well. They have great inlet/outlet sizes on them.
dudedudedude
Member
Hahn, I have tried the Quite one 3000. Looks like I can get 30 scfh at 25 watts intank, and 40 scfh at 35 watts with 24" head on a primative 6 inch skimmer. Either way I have start up issues. I picked up on pentiar being sicce and have been working and moding it for about 3 months. I dont know if the 3000 will get the performance of the PSK-2500. However, the 4000 spins faster due to the windings according to pentair. I think this pump may have potential for equal to higher air flow at less watts than the psk-2500. If anyone has one I could borrow to test out for a week (it would not require any modifications) I could verify this.
because i mod the skimmer i was need to pull more air and the original one was to small .
the true is that i don't recommend to try to increase more air to the BM250 because afer you will have problem with the size of the skimmer and you will need to increase the neck ,also you will need to match exhaust and so on , the skimmer work very well as is and i don't think it's necessary at all.
i was mod the pump and try to see how much LPH i can pick up , i also extend the skimmer neck 4" high because the skimmer was to powerfull and it was about 3500LPH after the mod ,you can see in the first picture where the bubble go down to the skimmer body...
when it's break in the skimmer pull like a crazy the foam out to the cup . it was nice for a moment but i cut it off. i did that to see what i can do with the sicce and i know they can pull more then 4000LPH but it's hard to keep it like that and the intake and the venturi need to be change .
from all the test i did i can said that ppl should except from the Sicce 20-25LPM run into the skimmer (and this is even more little bit because the flow meter restrict tha air...) more then that it will be not easy and very hard to mod. when the controller of those pump will be available it will be easy to pull 2300LPH from the pump but again one pump can run on BM250 alone....
I stop to play with it
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
what volume do you get with the BM200?
