size for home grown emporer (o other large angels)

[mattsilvester]

Posted this in the reef forum also, but didn't get much of a response.

I was wondering who has the biggest emporer angel - preferably someone that has grown theirs on from either a juvanile or a small adult. Or for that matter, any other pomacanthus or holocanthus angel.

Having kept an emporer before (grew from small juv to 7" adult) I was thinking of getting another. However I am undecided whether to get a juv or adult coloured fish. I have a feeling that a juv will adapt better and as a result be a longer lived, more healthy fish. However, a small adult will probably have nicer markings and will be a respectable size from the outset.

The reason I am considering the latter is that the emporer is likely to be the centre piece fish in a 180, with a single tang (not sure which yet - medium sized though, nothing as big as a naso or sohal), and a shoal of green chromis........... hence it would be nice to have immediate effect.

My only concern is that if I get say a 6" adult coloured fish, will he grow well in my system? I love to watch fish grow, I love to look back a pics and think "he's grown 2" this year" or whatever - for me seeing your animals grow is prehaps the greatest reward in the hobby

Thanks for your input.

regards,

Matt

 

[mattsilvester]

anyone?

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I do not think a 180 is a suitable home for an adult angel like an emperor. A juvenile would certainly fit, and would like grow much, but these fish can get to near or over 12", so a larger tank would be a better long term home.

 

[mattsilvester]

jmaneyapanda,

Respectfully, I disagree. I do not think a 6x2x2 tank, uncluttered, and lightly stocked is too small for an emporer angel. I have had one before, and I know what their behaviour patterns are etc.

I would agree that a 15" emporer would be too big for such a system, however I have not yet encountered anyone that has grown an emporer to anywhere near that size. Hence my question - if I got back a big bunch of replies of folks saying "I got a 4" juv about 5 years ago, and now he's nearing 15 inches" then I would certianly re-think my choice.

I think what I am proposing is a far better environment than a 300 gal tank shared with several other big fish like triggers, groupers, tangs etc.

But we all have different opinions I suppose. For example, having kept a single 6" pink tail trigger, I feel a 120 is far too small for a pair of crosshatch triggers, and I would be more confortable with a 12" emporer in a 6' tank than a pair of crosshatch triggers in a 4' tank - I would consider them to be very active fish that would really appreciate the extra swimming length.

On the subject of crosshatch triggers, how long have you had yours, and how do you find them? Have they ever threatened your snails or shrimps (assuming you have them)? any more pics of them? I think they are a very beautiful fish, but are pretty expensive in my neck of the woods.

Cheers,

Matt

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I wholeheartedly agree about the triggers. They are going into my 220 gallon in a few weeks. The male is about 6" and the female about 4". Of note, I only have about 50 pounds of rock in the 90, so it is clear water for them to swim, and I plan on little rock in the 220 also. Great fish, they have never bothered anything, EXCEPT eating all of my chromis in about 3 days.

Anyway, I did specifically say that a 180 isnt appropriate for an adult fish. I unfortunately feel that we haven't heard of people emperors kept to 12+ inches because of inadequate care and housing. Understand, this includes myself! I once had a 6" emperor which appears fine (grown from a 3+ inch juvenile), which ruled my tank (and made all other fishes life uncomfortable in that tank). He died quite unexpectedly, but I even began to regret having him in that tank before his death, as I could not suitable house him to his natural size. However, if aqcuired as a juvenile, I think an emperor would do fine for many years, as I feel they are better suited for adjustment to captivity.

Would you feel it appropriate to acquire one of these fish if I told you it took only 10 years to get 15"? To me, whether it grows to maximum size in 1 day or 1 decade, I still consider housing it at that maximum size.

This is all just my opinion, and surely there are many people (like yourself, as it sounds) that throroughly and properly house and care for their fishes, and prove me wrong. I like being proved wrong in cases such as this.

 

[mattsilvester]

jmaneyapanda,

Yes I would agree - too many people underestimate the level of care required for these animals. In honest, I feel that the main reason these animals do not live long enough to reach near natural sizes, is stress. And for the most part, I think that the stress is brought on by unsuitable tank mates. Emporer angels will chase everything in the tank that he percieves as a threat to his territory, food supply, or hiding places. In my view, it is as stressful having to constantly give chase, as it is to constantly be chased. In my view, they just should not be house in "large fish community" tanks, but rather be house as a specimen fish, and share only with smaller tankmates - not those that can be viewed as competitors.

To be honest, if I thought an emporer would grow to 15" in 10 years, I would be quite satisfied, and would certianly proceed. 10 years is a long time - I don't know what will happen or where I'll be in 10 years time. If I got a juv. now and in 5 or 6 years time it was 8 or 9" and still growing...... well I'll worry about it then...... being the pesimist that I am, I could be dead, out of work, divorced - I could have immigrated, or just moved..... I could be living in a mansion with 6 kids and have a 1000 gal tank...... or then again I could be living in a small apartment...... who knows..... I can only plan for the here and now, and for what I percieve as the forseeable future......

 

[Mark]

I have an emperor in a 180. And while I feel the tank is big enough for my fish from a bioload standpoint, I think it's getting to be too small of a territory for him. He terrorizes my tiny convict tang and chalk bass. He also killed a starki damsel. While I do not plan on getting rid of him, I do wish I went for a more mellow angel. If you read Scott Michael's book, they have large territories in the wild. Scott recommends a 180 for an emperor. But again, I think that is more bioload. I really think they would be a lot less aggressive in a 1000g community tank. But who has space for that. I'm not trying to steer you away. Just keep in mind they are mean spirited fish in cramped quarters. Doesn't matter if it's a naso, a school of chromis or what.

They only fish he doen't mess with is my percula clowns. My little 2 inch perculas nip the heck out of him whenever he is close to their anemone. He's learned to stay away.

 

[mattsilvester]

Mark,
Thanks for the reply - how big is your emporer?

Cheers,
Matt

 

[Kahuna Tuna]

Hi Matt, I do know a 180 would be a great home for a small emp for many, many years but I do think the time will come, if you keep him long enough, that he will outhrow that 180. I purposely limited my selection of an angel for my 180 to fish that top out at under 10 inches, both for size and aggressiveness reasons (I picked a flagfin). I had an asfur in this tank for years and it would have outgrown this tank if it had survived.

 

[mattsilvester]

Hi Mike (Kahuna),

Been having second thought on the mac / asfur things simply because of size..... seen / read / heard lots of reports recently of how big they can get..... thought while the emporer is big, he probably won't get as big as a mac / asfur.

Been talking to Ed Kruzel as well....... he tells me his old majestic angel is now a whopping 14"!!! Would love to see that in the flesh.

I would still like to know though how many people actually have a 12" plus emporer that wasn't "ready bought" at a huge size.

Thanks for the replies folks.
Regards,

Matt

 

[Mark]

Matt,

My fish was 3 inches when I acquired him. He is now 8 inches and cranky. He grunts at me, whenever I walk past the tank. Emperors have been a life long favorite, but in retrospect I wish I had gone with a goldflake or majestic. Heck, a nice Paracentropyge would have been cool too. Lots of little fish in a big tank is much more tranquil and engaging than having a big territorial fish chasing everyone. Sitting in front of my tank isn't exactly relaxing, when my fish are being terrorized.

Again, just sharing my experience.

 

[jnc914]

I have a 5 inch emperor in my 180 gallon and he is kept in line by my sailfin, which is slightly smaller than him. I bought both very small and they have grown at least 1-2" since putting them in the tank in February. Temperment of an emperor is hit or miss, some days mine is a nice guy, other days he is a grouch. I have seen him go after other fish in the tank, but never the Sailfin. He even sustained injury to one of his eyes after going after my foxface. I think you will see aggression more from food competition than territory with most Emps. They have an unsatiable appetite, especially during color change. Keep the Emp well fed and there seems to be less grunting and chasing going on. I love mine though, and one day I will up grade to a 300 gallon to better house him. But keeping him in a 180 with plenty of flow and open space to swim should be fine for several years. And no I do not know of anyone that has grown an Emp from juvi to a 12-15" adult. The only ones I have seen get that big are from the Christmas islands, which you can purchase almost exclusively as adults around the 8-10 inch size. I have never seen a juvi sold from the Christmas islands. They are absolutely the most colorful and largest of the species. mattsilvester- Good luck with you Emp.

 

[mattsilvester]

Thanks for the input JNC914.
Yeah I had an emporer before - much as you describe.... great fish, such a character - thats why I want another.
But Ed Kruzel has me thinking now about a majestic - I can remember 4 or 5 years back Ed got a 4" Majestic (navarchus). Within a year it had doubled in size......... beautful fish...... he tells me now it is 14" !!!
Half the reason I have always steered clear of these fish is because I always believed them to be a bit too timid, and picky, and not growing big enough to be a true centre piece...... Ed has proven me wrong, so I am considering one of these now also (instead).........
Of couse my last option would be to pursue the emporer and go for an all out bigger tank from the outset (300gal) - though I do not really want to go bigger than the 180. Although it would allow me to get a couple of other ncie fish also.

Thanks for the input - any mor takers?

Matt