Skimmerless Systems "Say I"

Attn: Jawfish

Attn: Jawfish

Hi Jawfish -
Not to worry, I understand the debate. Certainly nothing personal is intended, nor taken. I certainly think everyone should be exposed to all opinions regarding skimming/not skimming. That's what a good thread like this does. I would be quite shallow to take insult at discussion of practice. Certainly skimmers do exactly what they are intended to. I do not challenge their effectiveness in doing so. I just hated the darn things and am glad mine stopped working and enlightened me as to the benefits of macroalgae. Even more lucky for me, is that I LOVE the lush razor caulerpa in my tank, so it all works out well for me, my grazers, and the nutrient load. I'll definitely sound a warning horn if my sandbed starts turning majorally black! ;) Cheers, and great discussion, that presents a pretty fair support of both sides of opinion.
Regards! :)
 
I have been skimmerless since i started my tank over a year ago and everthing is still doing great.I get many e-mails and comments on how i need a skimmer and in time my tank will crash.Well all i can say is read FISH WHISPERERS post, i couldn't say it any better myself, thanks FISH WHISPERER!!!!!!!
 
ok I have to jump in here, there is no way I could run my set up with out a skimmer unless I did massive water changes, I have a 180 gal tank loaded with sps, leathers and lps corals. I also have 4 lrg angel fish , 1 lrg tang, anthias, clowns , and a couple other small fish. my sump is a 200 gal sump/pond with a aerofoamer 830 skimmer. every two weeks I fill the pond up with macro algae.
I have tried turning down the skimmer, but in doing so i start getting red slime growing in the main tank, as soon as I turn the skimmer back up the slime is gone in about 3 to 4 days, the pond also has a 12" deep sand bed that is over 4' long and more than 2' wide. I feed my angel a lot , 5 times a day.
The point i'm trying to make is first decide what type of reef you want, i like large expensive fish around my reef, especially the destructive ones:D After you decide your fish load then you can decide wether or not you need a skimmer. skimmerless could be done in my system, but i'm to lazy to do that many water changes. Most people start off saying I just want a reef and don't care about many fish, but over time you will go into your favorite fish store and pick up just one more fish, cause you know theirs always room for just one more special fish :D so get the skimmer for back up and use it if you need it or turn it off if you think you can live with out it, but it's always their for backup
 
Fish Wisperer,

I did check your web site link. Come now, fess up. If those are pictures of your tank, it would explain a lot. I see a FOWLR full of macroalgae, not a reef. Let alone an SPS reef.

Mr. 4000,

I've seen your site, and it does appear to be a reef. The scale of your effort is impressive. I'm aware of your ecosystem approach. Pruning macroalgae is your export mechanism. More power to you if you can keep it going as your tank matures. If you can continue to export large quantities of macroalgae, you very well may succeed.

For a tank your size, I can't imagine the skimmer you'd require, the cost of the electricty to run the pump for the skimmer. I'd suspect that dictated your approach.

You're still limited in your export mechanisms. And a large tank is easier than a small tank. At a year, your tank is barely mature. As it matures, I fear you have few options. You're bound to sink or swim on a grand scale.

On a side note, I'd love to have a tank that size, and pump in water directly from the ocean. (I'm not implying that you do, just wish I could.) In that case, I don't think I'd want a skimmer either!

My bet is that you pull one HUGE, and I do mean HUGE wad of macroalgae from that tank now. On a regular basis. What was it, two 200 gal macroalgae tanks?




In short, isn't the reason you two have had some success is that you're pulling massive clumps of macroalgae on a regular basis? You have an effective, single, export mechanism. I still see this as a limit.

Say you don't have two 200 gal refugiums (which an ecosystem sure seems like), or a tank as overgrown with macroalgae as the ones on Fish Wisperers web page. Would this be a recommended approach? Say you had an SPS tank with a small (or no) refugium. I think you would have to consider an additional export mechanism.

Note David Grigors tank, very much like my own. Vins Fins tank, and IronReef's are similar to my understanding. If we don't want our display tank overgrown with macroalgae, and don't want 200 gallon refugiums, will skimmerless work. My take is, not enough to export. (And I prune a lot of macro from my refugium regularly. )

In terms of algae export as a sole export, isn't it still unproven? Fish Wisperer talked of the before-protien-skimmer days. Come now, in those days success was limited. Very Limited. 10 years ago, folks though Acropora was impossible.

If macroalgae export as the sole export mechanism is such a great approach, why do ATS systems (ala Dr. Adey) do so poorly with SPS?

Again, I'd like to pose the question: Do you think a higher % of skimmerless systems succeed than systems with skimmers?

From my years on the boards, it's very much the opposite.

Show me the skimmerless SPS tanks!
 
Last edited:
It's pretty obvious you havent seen Sue Truett's tank. She is skimmerless and has a awsome sps tank. I too am skimmerless, and the frags i have are doin great.
 
Yes, of course I made mistakes. I was candid and surely admit to it.

From my experience my philosophy has changed a bit to account for my mistakes ( and probably won't be the last ). I kind of think of it like I do with computers having redundant CPUs, having multiple circuits for your tank etc. Why not both. Both have advantages and can back up each other to account for mishaps..........
 
Fwiw Sue T skimmerles tank is new. Eric B doesn't use his skimmer but he keeps on on his tank and uses it occationally of feels better on having it. Ask Him. I've seen eco systems crash after a year. When the caulerpa went sexual. Not saying the tanks would have crashed anyway.But the best skimmerless tanks that house corals have nice refugiums not just a tank full of caulerpa IMO doesn't look good if trying a reef. Caulerpa mixed with corals. But I've seen some ecosystem tanks or tanks with caulerpa filters that are years old but they still use carbon look nice. But i still stand I use alot of caulerpa it filters my tank =refugium, grows mass pods mass sponges ect. ect... i use heavy skimming also. I feed @4 cubes aday. I only have 2 med-large fish but they eat most before it hits the sand. My ls can probally eat all 4 cubes on it's own. My point is in a healthy tank you will have alot of critters. I have 3 types of snails breeding in my tank. With heavy skimming. i dunno what it takes out but it smells like a sewer. it doesn't take out calcuim,alk or ph so whatever else it takes out I'm not concerned. One thing about this post it's no big deal on going skimmerless but the poster had valvonia problem if you look at the post a few weeks back. Not saying a skimmer would cure it alot of ppl use skimmers and still get it. Just it comes from excess= a skimer may have helpd. =the caulerpa didn't
 
Fish Whisperer.........what kind of skimmers do you have laying around that you dont use anymore?????? I need a new one. Seriously.....send me an email!


Thankyou,
Dennis
 
Sue T.'s 180 is skimmerless? I might eat some crow here. It's the nicest SPS tank I've seen (pics), since her 120. LOL! I thought she ran a skimmer, I was aware of the ecosystem.

OK scratch that arguement for now. Maybe the ATS/SPS analogy was crap. ;)

I'm still not buying the ecosystem bioballs, (or the miracle garden dirt), and you'll only remove my skimmer prying it from my cold dead hands! :)
 
Re: Skimmerless Systems "Say I"

I never had a skimmer running in my tanks for the first 15 years of my experience....ran with undergravel filters with monthly water changes. Did great, although I could never keep my nitrates low (I was told this was due to the waste trapped in the gravel, even though I vacuumed when doing water changes). Recently I bought my first skimmer because I thought it would improve the overall water quality and help keep the nitrates down. My current theory is that skimmers are good and useful to those of us still using crushed coral substrate and undergravel filters, although not completely necessary. Perhaps with a sandy substrate and outside filter, skimmers aren't needed at all....I am thinking the usefulness/uselessness depends on your system...
 
Easy there......

Easy there......

Come now, Jawfish, you don't think I'd be throwing a flat ball, do ya? Pics on my website show a heavily stocked tank, and I've left them there for all that say a skimmerless "can't have a heavy bioload...." Indeed, someone just mentioned something about "needing" a skimmer because they like fish.... I, too, like fish, and that's one system with about as heavy a bioload as one could conscientiously have with or without a skimmer. You of course are intelligent enough ;) to know that corals wouldn't fare thee well in a tank with a Picasso trigger, clown trigger, longhorn cow, choc. chip star, AND a Red-Sea slate urchin. The tang? He'd be okay.... Indeed, the tang is now in a different tank, a 100g custom 5-sided corner, with plenty of corals. I wouldn't be talking "skimmerless reef" if I didn't have the experience behind it. Fortunately, I can speak to both heavily-stocked skimmerless, and full-reef skimmerless. MY pictures of the reef tank wouldn't be much different of many beautiful pics, but if you "need" confirmation that I do indeed have a full-reef skimmerless, drop me an email and I'll send you some pics. Or maybe I'll say if ya don't believe me, you're more than welcome to come over and check it out in person, because a picture could come from anywhere, no? Still better, if ya think I might be a fraud, some folks that made the trip down to Jeff's Exotics with me will gladly whisper in yer ear that it might be better to not insinuate that I might be misleading. At least, I hope I haven't been misleading... I DO have a wide range of corals, but it's not about proving that something "awesome" has been accomplished. Indeed, it's "just another reef tank." Tantamount to any argument, it's not about "Fish Whisperer's" reef tank, it's the fact that everytime someone says something "negative" or "forwarning" about skimmerless reefs, there are plenty of folks out here who shake their heads in wonderment.
I don't want anybody reading this to think that anything out of the norm is being accomplished with skimmerless tanks... Indeed, some of us think it is better to not have a skimmer, and indeed it is clearly easier to not have one other piece of equipment that could fail/flood. I think skimmers are best left to those with enough experience and plumbing/pressure knowledge to deal with them. :D

As always, my systems are always welcome to help me meet new friends from the boards. The general routine is, we meet at a local fish store, and my wife whispers in my ear if she thinks the person is a total nut. I mean, our home is open, but not to anybody weirder than me!!! That would be dangerous! :D Then we usually come over, chat fish, and have one of my awesome BBQs. Tankin's great, and there are many ways to do things. I don't think a skimmer allows any sort of advantage and I think that's key here. Let's all remember that we shouldn't talk too knowingly about what is good/bad/right/wrong unless we feel we have sufficient experience in doing whatever it is we are professing about. ;) Because just when one person is saying what can/can't be done, there is another person laughing at the suggestion that they are doing the "impossible." My tanks are by no means any sort of measure, nor do I have any special skill or "knowledge." Again, they are basically designed for ease of maintenance, success, and prevention of mechanical intervention/failures. ;) Indeed, there's not possibly an easier way to keep a reef/fish tank... I like beginners to hear that side of the coin, and like I've said, everyone I've helped start out in the hobby has been greener than caulerpa, but they've had no problems "grasping" this notion that some people think requires some type of "experience or in-depth knowledge." So, by virtue of their success, it debunks any false claims that "skimmerless" should only be tried by those with experience. Indeed, I believe the next phase of reefkeeping with macroalgae has simplified the hobby even further. Certainly, some folks with mondo investment bongs will still cling to an imagined justification that their tanks would "die" without them, but too many people have jumped from this particular floor successfully for anybody still inside the building to say it's a "fatal leap." :) Macroalgae = skimmer. One is free, the other is not. Both require maintenance, but if you don't have the desire for any maintenance, then no doubt the hobby experience will be short-lived. And remember, it's best to be careful about saying what can/can't be done, because remember, there's usually always going to be someone there who proves you wrong by actual experience/tangible proof , and that's rather hard to argue... In fact, success can't be argued. And just because someone has failed after a few months of skimmerless does not mean that everyone else will do the same.... Indeed, by virtue of the many years of proven skimmerless reefing, it is fair to say that those systems did NOT fail because there was no skimmer.... What say, in all my redundancy ;) , have I failed to oft repeat the fact that if a skimmer is "saving" your tank from crashing, you have a much greater problem.... Something is making it crash, eh? No tank crash, no need for a skimmer... Simplicity is blissful. And no, not having a skimmer will not make a tank "crash." You can't make any sort of factual statement that has been conclusively proven to the contrary and not be wrong. And I do hate saying anybody is wrong, so I'll just plop the numbers out there and ya'll can do your own math and draw your own conclusions. ;)

I suppose I'll get around to a list of all my corals, but that would prove nothing "new and exciting" to the many folks that are doing just the same thing. To us, it's not "amazing", it's just easy, simple, and quite enjoyable. I have, and will continue to encourage all new hobbyists to explore all the tools and methods, and let them choose which "system" they would find most "user-friendly." So far, all have ix-nayed the concept of skimming. Seeing my tanks, and those of others, they can clearly see that beautiful reef tanks can be had without the use of a skimmer... That shouldn't hurt anyone's feelings. ;)
 
I went skimmerless on my 40 gallon reef tank 7 monyhs ago because of a failed skimmer. I only have soft corals in my tank and I noticed a significant improvements in growth after I went skimmerless. I also started feeding less(once every other day) and doing less water changes. My reef keeps getting better and better everyday. I also have minimal caulerpa only growing on two of the rocks. I am puring it once a month. I am all for all natural approach. It is great :)

I have just finished cycling my new 130 gal reef(41 days old), with 80 % cured and 20 % uncured and 3 pieces of cocktail shrimp as FW recomended. Cycling went great, the tank cyvled in 24 days. This one is skimmerless all the way from the beginning, I am fighting some brown and red slime in my sump, but I am noticing red slime is starting to go away already :) My yellow tang and 2 clowns are doing great. I wish more people would realize how simple and easy it really is.

By the way, thanks FW for all your help and information.
 
Weren't we ALL pretty much running "skimmerless" prior to the invention of the protein skimmer? When I started out, there WERE NO skimmers....I just purchased one recently to improve the water quality in my tank....I think going back to "skimmerless" is a step backwards, not forwards....
 
Howdy,
Been skimmerless for approximately 4 1/2 years.

The tank is running great coral growth and color is great.

No complaints...I have seen very healthy skimmed tanks as well.

These are just two methods of many, we will probably see other filtration methods as time goes by.

I am happy with the health of the tank, I would do it again.

I do also have a 37 skimmed tank and a skimmerless 10 gallon nanno tank as well.
All are healthy!

If you know what you are doing and keep track of the health of the inhabitants all will be well!

Good husbandry is the key no matter what filtration method you use.
Jim T.
 
I agree with the "There is no advantage to having 'less tools'" point of view, and I do run a skimmer on my tank.

However, from my experience, most people are running skimmerless tanks, despite the piece of Acrylicrap they may have attached to the tank. Most skimmers don't do squat from what i've seen.

And to flip flop yet again, I'll pull my Euro-reef off my tank the day it stops producing very nasty output despite my refugium.
 
I've been skimmerless for about four months now on my 90 Gallon Reef with a Tidepool 2 sump. Pulled out the biowheel of course. All readings (Ammo, Nitrite, Nitrate) are at 0. I mentioned this to my LFS (seems quite knowledgeable), and he commented on possible contaminants for which you cannot test. (ie. terpenes, undissolved organics, etc.). Two things.
1. I use carbon in the sump and wonder if that will cut down on these 'other contaminants'.
2. Although everything seems great right now, am I asking for trouble down the line?
I know this is getting to be an old topic but I feel that those operating skimmerless are, in some ways, on the cutting edge of the hobby. BTW, I also use a DSB with a Plenum and suspect that has something to do with success so far. Then again, maybe the stars are just aligned in my favor at the present time.
 
Re: Skimmerless Systems "Say I"

I ran a variety of tanks skimmerless for about ten years just fine. I also had one with a skimmer and that was just fine. More recently I tore down and rebuilt one tank, adding a in tank sump and in sump skimmer (simple cocurrent of PVC) which pulls rich dark gunk when run. When I stopped it from running for a month the nutrient levels went up some but dropped again when I ran it again as I do now.

My tanks all have low fish loads, lots of live rock, deep sand beds and I don't feed heavily so the nutrient load isn't very high.

All that said, I would suggest skimmers for people who want more of a sure thing. The skimmer makes the job of maintaining the tank easier. A gentle air driven skimmer may be all that is necessary and is more gentle on the plankton as well as stripping less of the trace elements.

YMMV.
 


However, from my experience, most people are running skimmerless tanks, despite the piece of Acrylicrap they may have attached to the tank. [/B]


Heh,heh. A good old quote from Greg. :lol:
 
Monty, I believe Jawfish nailed it on the head. Don't lessen the value of a skimmer by considering its function only to remove organics. It could also remove metals and funk your water purifier could be missing.
On many tanks, I run skimmers, but I retard thier efficiency (lower the water level in the reaction chamber). This prevents "overskimming" with all of the benefits Jawfish exposed his jugular about.

Why is everyone so afraid of a cycling tank of live rock? Seriously. Why?

Fishteacher73, why does it have to be the Dark Side? Evil spelled backwards is live, and we all want to do that!
 
Back
Top