Skimmerless: who's doing it? pros and cons

[Subsea]

I have been skimmerless for more than 20 years. I disagree with the common assumption that going skimmerless requires more frequent water changes. If this is true, than I say that tank has insufficient biological filtration.

With my last move, my oldest tank set up is 12 years old: 75G Jaubert plenum on top with a 30G mud/macro refugium on bottom. It has not seen a skimmer or a water change in 12 years. Two years ago with the addition of Sea Apples and heavy feeding, I experience a cynobacteria bloom. This required aggressive gravel vacuming with this water discarded as a partial water change. After two months, I discontinued the partial water change. I vacum the sandbed once a week and run this effluent into the sump thru a fine mesh media bag. The water is reused and the detritus is discarded as nutrient export. Macro algae is pruned and discarded as nutrient export or it is feed to tangs as nutrient recycling. I feed heavy and dose with iron when macro growth slows down. My make up water comes directly from the tap with my water source being well water at 900' from the Middle Trinity Aquifer. The Edwards Plateau limestone aquifers were shallow oceans at one time and are heavy with minerals to the point of lime water equivalent. Small amounts of activated carbon are replaced weekly.
This past Christmas, with the introduction of ich from a Blue Tang, I added a 40W UV sterilizer. This cured the ich infestation and provided a clarity to the water that I have not seen in many tanks. I have continued the use of the sterilizer.

Pros: inexpensive and easy to maintain.

Cons: requires knowledge and good husbandry

 

[Aquarist007]

I have been skimmerless for more than 20 years. I disagree with the common assumption that going skimmerless requires more frequent water changes. If this is true, than I say that tank has insufficient biological filtration.

With my last move, my oldest tank set up is 12 years old: 75G Jaubert plenum on top with a 30G mud/macro refugium on bottom. It has not seen a skimmer or a water change in 12 years. Two years ago with the addition of Sea Apples and heavy feeding, I experience a cynobacteria bloom. This required aggressive gravel vacuming with this water discarded as a partial water change. After two months, I discontinued the partial water change. I vacum the sandbed once a week and run this effluent into the sump thru a fine mesh media bag. The water is reused and the detritus is discarded as nutrient export. Macro algae is pruned and discarded as nutrient export or it is feed to tangs as nutrient recycling. I feed heavy and dose with iron when macro growth slows down. My make up water comes directly from the tap with my water source being well water at 900' from the Middle Trinity Aquifer. The Edwards Plateau limestone aquifers were shallow oceans at one time and are heavy with minerals to the point of lime water equivalent. Small amounts of activated carbon are replaced weekly.
This past Christmas, with the introduction of ich from a Blue Tang, I added a 40W UV sterilizer. This cured the ich infestation and provided a clarity to the water that I have not seen in many tanks. I have continued the use of the sterilizer.

Pros: inexpensive and easy to maintain.

Cons: requires knowledge and good husbandry

It would be great to have PaulB in this discussion as he has used a skimmer for as long as you have not.
I am interested in what you have in the tank above ... Fish load corals etc.

I respect your expertise greatly and you have the experience to handle problems that occur in your systems.
However the reality of the situation today and you can tell me if it has changed is that the new reefer is encouraged by the market/ internet to add more and more fish to their tanks due to "new" modern methods in filtration
As a result they end up with overstocked tanks and a reliance on media hype that all problems that occur will be taken care of
They have missed a vital part of learning in this hobby and that is how to handle problems on their own...cyano etc etc
You would not believe the stories I hear of what a lfs has told a hobbyist to do and they have blindly followed
I always tell my clients not to judge me on the problems that prop up but on how I solve them.

That said I see a skimmer very important in this situation. It may or may not stop a tank crash but it definitely will help. Equally I don't see the use of it becoming any less.

 

[Subsea]

155 Gallon reef tank full of corals with 5 fish, 2x250w 10K MH 8hr duration, started in 2007. no skimmer, no refuge or ATS. I use a 100 micron sock to remove larger particulates, activated carbon every other month, along with GFO when phosphates become .25ppm . I also monitor my RO D/I and keep it at 0ppm TDS. Dirty RO water seems to be my main source for phosphates. Every 6 months I do a water change (25%) to balance all the minerals and elements. Nitrates always undetectable, phosphates usually below .25ppm (test kit lowest reading). The best indication for water quality is my corals and the viewing panes of glass. no cyano, or diatoms, just little hair algae around the drains. I dose calcium, alk, mag, strontium, potassium, iodine, essential elements, occasional amino acids from constant pruning.

Gorgeous tank. It would seem your abundant corals are your biofilter.
Kudos to you.
Patrick

 

[Aquarist007]

Beautiful tank. How many fish do you have in there.

 

[Subsea]

It would be great to have PaulB in this discussion as he has used a skimmer for as long as you have not.
I am interested in what you have in the tank above ... Fish load corals etc.

I respect your expertise greatly and you have the experience to handle problems that occur in your systems.
However the reality of the situation today and you can tell me if it has changed is that the new reefer is encouraged by the market/ internet to add more and more fish to their tanks due to "new" modern methods in filtration
As a result they end up with overstocked tanks and a reliance on media hype that all problems that occur will be taken care of
They have missed a vital part of learning in this hobby and that is how to handle problems on their own...cyano etc etc
You would not believe the stories I hear of what a lfs has told a hobbyist to do and they have blindly followed
I always tell my clients not to judge me on the problems that prop up but on how I solve them.

That said I see a skimmer very important in this situation. It may or may not stop a tank crash but it definitely will help. Equally I don't see the use of it becoming any less.

Paul and I have discussed our methods. He does not like the DSB or Jaubert Plenum. We both share agreement on adding biodiversity at the bottom of the food chain. He adds amphipods and mud from Long Island Sound. I like using diver collected uncured live rock from the GOM. We both agree on the use of macro algae.
In no way can I claim as well stocked a tank as Paul. I strive for simplicity and ease of maintenance. I have softies, LPS, NPS, clams, Red Tree Sponge, Sea Apple and one SPS colony. The tank has one Yellow Tang and one Blue Tang. It also has a pair of tank raised Ocellarius Clownfish that host in a clam. I have one Green Mandarian and about six Black Mollies.
I have trouble posting pictures but will get a friend to post a u-tube vidio of the tank tomorrow.
Thank you for your interest,
Patrick

 

[Subsea]

Here's a sequence of photos and video of one of my skimmerless tanks with lighted and cryptic refugiums:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjMFWHC4uBM


Ken Feldman, et al, has published a very good series of articles of his research. Here are the links for those interested:

Ganulated Activated Carbon pt. 1 & 2
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/1/aafeature1
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/2/aafeature1

Total Organic Carbon in Aquaria
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2

Protein Skimate Analysis
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature

Protein Skimmer Performance
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/aafeature2
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature

Bacterial Counts in Aquaria vs Reefs
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature1

For those that think skimming is necessary, they should read some of Ken Feldman research. In particular, skewed bacteria populations in reef aquaria using skimmers. Look at some of Timfish u-tube vidio of tanks set up more than 20 years that are skimmerless. IMO, the long term health in reef aquaria requires healthy bacteria populations. Bacteria make the world "go around".

Without bacteria, Earth would have lost "The War of Worlds" to the Martians.
Go figure,
Patrick

 

[AcroporAddict]

The skimmerless tanks seem to be soft and LPS coral dominant. I doubt you will see many SPS dominant tanks operating without protein skimmers. I give my soft/LPS coral mixed reef longer intervals between cleanings and water changes than my 98% SPS reef because they seem to grow better with more dissolved organics in the water.

 

[Subsea]

Yes, I hear that generalization often.

When I started in this hobby 44 years ago, SPS were not available and I never got into their addiction. For the first 40 years in this hobby I worked as a deep water subsea engineer in offshore drilling. As I worked away from home for six months out of the year on a 28 day on and 28 day off work schedule, I adopted methods that were compatible with work. I used extended refugiums that were often bigger than the display tank. When I was away from home, the only automation that I used was auto top off of make up water. The refugiums and DSB feed the tanks. No other source of food nor husbandry was applied to tanks. When I was home, I caught up on aesthetics and husbandry.

Now that I have retired, I see little reason to adapt techniques that require much work. I enjoy my tanks for their beauty and simplicity.

To your point of growing acroporia, I see no reason why skimmerless operation would not maintain them. In fact, if you look at some of the u-tube links of the skimmerless tanks that Timfish has maintained for over twenty years, you will see healthy vibrant acroporia.

To each his own. I say "viva la difference".
Patrick

 

[Aquarist007]

Paul and I have discussed our methods. He does not like the DSB or Jaubert Plenum. We both share agreement on adding biodiversity at the bottom of the food chain. He adds amphipods and mud from Long Island Sound. I like using diver collected uncured live rock from the GOM. We both agree on the use of macro algae.
In no way can I claim as well stocked a tank as Paul. I strive for simplicity and ease of maintenance. I have softies, LPS, NPS, clams, Red Tree Sponge, Sea Apple and one SPS colony. The tank has one Yellow Tang and one Blue Tang. It also has a pair of tank raised Ocellarius Clownfish that host in a clam. I have one Green Mandarian and about six Black Mollies.
I have trouble posting pictures but will get a friend to post a u-tube vidio of the tank tomorrow.
Thank you for your interest,
Patrick

No need to thank me for my interest. I was fortunate to join here and have PaulB and the WaterKeeper as mentors to name just a couple. It gave a great advantage of learning the tried and true basics of this hobby and has helped me put into perspective new technology. At one point I was servicing 35 marine tanks myself.. Without that blend of old school vs new school I would not have had the success I have had.
Most of my clients want lots of fish and I only see the tanks once a week. Very few would go with the bioload you want...although in a lot of cases it would be the most intelligent thing to do

I used to spend a great deal of time helping in the "new to the reef" forum. However there is a real attitude change in there and that is lack of respect for the old tried and true methods when suggested to them. Can you imagine if we had this discussion in that forum?

Do you have a thread you can call as your base like PaulB. I would love the link so I can keep in touch
Scotty

Here is the thread I keep
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1786183

 

[Subsea]

Scotty,
I would be happy to join you on that link. I have a website (aquacultureranch.com) with a blog, but have not managed it well. I am somewhat of a dinosaur when it comes to multi media communication. Yes, I have seen the attitude of the hi tech generation to old school.
Unfortunately for my business model, I do not tolerate the lack of respect. After four combat tours in Vietnam and Cambodia, I am a little crusty and worry little about public opinion.
Cheers,
Patrick

 

[AcroporAddict]

Yes, I hear that generalization often.

When I started in this hobby 44 years ago, SPS were not available and I never got into their addiction. For the first 40 years in this hobby I worked as a deep water subsea engineer in offshore drilling. As I worked away from home for six months out of the year on a 28 day on and 28 day off work schedule, I adopted methods that were compatible with work. I used extended refugiums that were often bigger than the display tank. When I was away from home, the only automation that I used was auto top off of make up water. The refugiums and DSB feed the tanks. No other source of food nor husbandry was applied to tanks. When I was home, I caught up on aesthetics and husbandry.

Now that I have retired, I see little reason to adapt techniques that require much work. I enjoy my tanks for their beauty and simplicity.

To your point of growing acroporia, I see no reason why skimmerless operation would not maintain them. In fact, if you look at some of the u-tube links of the skimmerless tanks that Timfish has maintained for over twenty years, you will see healthy vibrant acroporia.

To each his own. I say "viva la difference".
Patrick

You are really the exception with your husbandry methods, as most typical reefers do not have the ability to devote extensive volume for their refugia and sumps you have as you state above. Most folks are limited to the volume of their display and a much smaller volume sump. I have what would be considered a fairly large TV system by many at 450 net gallons. I don't own a 10,000 gallon macro algae ranch, like you do, hehehe!

I have no doubt SPS can be maintained and can flourish in a high volume system with your methods. I am sure the use of skimmers for most reefers, including myself, relates to the ease they can be used in their limited volume systems.

The one thing I have learned in my 40 years in the hobby is there are many ways to achieve one's goals.

 

[Mark]

Here's my mixed reef, but sps dominate the tank. Skimmer broke a long time ago. So far, running fine with just a macroalgae sump and 4 water changes a year. Sorry for the crappy quality. Daytime reflections on glass and using an iphone.

 

[Subsea]

I looked at your build thread and saw an array of gadgets and wires that would rival the space shuttle. Kudos to you. I have always felt that the trend for SPS techies was expensive and time consuming. This can be daunting to entry level newbies, as well as anyone on a fixed budget. Not everyone in the marine hobby chooses to go that route. If this was a SPS forum thread, I would not have piped up. The thread title was
Skimmerless: WHO is doing it? Pros and Cons. You have injected your cons and I have pointed out and listed links of people that have been very successful with skimmerless SPS dominate tanks.

I have numerous tanks as small as 20G that are skimmerless and sumpless. They are easy to maintain and inexpensive to set up. Not everybody wants to pay for the space shuttle.
Patrick

 

[Aquarist007]

Could you possibly repost this pic of your tankon this thread
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1540422

And do you have a pic of the refugium that is taking care of this outstanding tank

I see this thread evolving into a skimmer vs a refugium thread

 

[Aquarist007]

Here's my mixed reef, but sps dominate the tank. Skimmer broke a long time ago. So far, running fine with just a macroalgae sump and 4 water changes a year. Sorry for the crappy quality. Daytime reflections on glass and using an iphone.

What other maintenance do you do Mark? Eg dosing

 

[AcroporAddict]

I see this thread evolving into a skimmer vs a refugium thread

I don't want to contribute any more to that than I already have, so I'll bow out. Again, nice reefs are possible using skimmers or not using them. Same regarding fuges. Just personal preference.

 

[Aquarist007]

I don't want to contribute any more to that than I already have, so I'll bow out. Again, nice reefs are possible using skimmers or not using them. Same regarding fuges. Just personal preference.

Please don't do that. Your input is as valuable as any one else's on here and appreciated
If any one is wrong it is I for posting an unfounded observation

 

[Mark]

What other maintenance do you do Mark? Eg dosing

Nothing special really. I do a 44 gallon water change once a quarter, if I remember. I run a Geo calcium reactor. I tried a doser with A/B solution for a while. It worked great, but became expensive. So I went back to using the Geo Ca reactor. Other than that, I do dose lugols when I remember. I'm also a fan of Two Little Fishies Acropower for aminos. The tank is pretty much bare-bottom, as is the refugium(really a "macroalgae scrubber"). I'll have to dig around for a refugium picture. The refugium is half of a 90-gallon tank I use as a sump in the basement. It's illuminated with 4 - t5's, half 3k and half 6.5K spectrum.

Regarding skimmers, I personally think they are fine. They are a good form of nutrient export, particularly with carbon dosing. They are also a great insurance policy for random events, like a Tridacna spawning. Ultimately, I never could get things right with carbon dosing. I found some corals didn't do well long-term, and I had the occasional bout with nitrogen fixing Cyano. Things seemed more stable and less of a headache with the refugium.

 

[Subsea]

What is nitrogen fixing Cyanobacteria?

 

[Mark]

What is nitrogen fixing Cyanobacteria?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanobacteria#Nitrogen_fixation