Skimmerless: who's doing it? pros and cons

I had a really crappy skimmer that pretty much did nothing but pull out some green water every few days and make a lot of noise. I decided to take it offline, nothing is better off or not, confirming it didn't do anything.

I kind of wish I had a bigger one or even a sump that could properly accomodate at least trying a bigger one, but for now I am going to see if an ATS can do the trick. So far 6 weeks in and my N still at 20 and P still somewhere above 0 and .25(API test is crap).
 
when I wrote couple years ago " skimmer starves corals, your corals will be fatter and happier without skimmer" Almost everybody opposed. Skimmers skim planctons and coral food only but never ammonia, nitrite nor nitrate. My tanks are doing way better without skimming or ATS..
Circulation, Live rock and 2 inches of fine sand only...
 
when I wrote couple years ago " skimmer starves corals, your corals will be fatter and happier without skimmer" Almost everybody opposed. Skimmers skim planctons and coral food only but never ammonia, nitrite nor nitrate. My tanks are doing way better without skimming or ATS..
Circulation, Live rock and 2 inches of fine sand only...

Why no ATS?


Give more details/pics...
 
Skimmers skim planctons and coral food only but never ammonia, nitrite nor nitrate.

They obviously skim out more than just those two things. You might want to add organic toxins, and organic and some inorganic forms of nitrogen, phosphorus, and heavy metals to that list. :)
 
Been running skimmerless for 2+ years now. ATS and weekly 5 gallon water changes on a 120 gal. System. Wouldn't do it any other way now. I plan on upgrading in the future but, will always have my ATS.
 
skimmer starves corals, your corals will be fatter and happier without skimmer"

That's an overstatement. It may work for you but my corals are certainly not starving with heavy skimming and do much better with it for a variety of reasons.
 
I've been running slimmer less on my 25g for over a year. Added a airstone slimmer last week, but I think I'll be getting rid of it bc it doesn't pull very much and is unsightly. I keep up weekly 5g water changes and feed lightly. Never had any water quality issues.
 
I had the misfortune of buying a used ASM G2 for my 90g mixed reef awhile back, only to realize the pump was electrifying my water. Naturally, I unplugged it and have been skimmerless for about 8 months now. The only difference I see is I have a bit more algae certain areas, but all of my corals are doing fantastic: always hungry, always puffy, great color. Even my bonsai acro that broke into 10 pieces from a new rockscape adventure has grown onto the live rock and started to sprout new arms. I have been lazy with waterchanges and sometimes my water is not as clear as I normally would like it, but everything is very happy. Maybe it helps that I only have a 3" six line, a sm pair of clowns, and a lavender tang.
 
You should really read this article, lots of good information given

Depending on your setup you may not need a protein skimmer

Granular activated carbon is better at removing Total Organic Carbon

A good healthy setup has enough bacteria to keep water quality balanced

All protein skimmers only remove 20% -35% of the measurable TOC regardless how much they cost from DIY to $$$$

Feature Article: Further Studies on Protein Skimmer Performance http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature

Mature reef tank houses enough TOC consuming organisms to effectively keep TOC levels at some acceptably low equilibrium level without the intervention of a protein skimmer.

From, the results of the experiments described here, it appears that only 20 - 35 % of the measurable TOC meets this hydrophobicity criterion (= [TOCl] defined earlier) whereas the remaining 65 - 80 % does not (= [TOCr] defined earlier). In essence, bubbles are a rather poor media for removal of organic nutrients from aquarium water compared to, for example, GAC. However, they do have the distinct benefit of being cheap.

In more quantitative terms, the aggregate TOC values averaged for both skimmers increase from about 0.53 ppm of C at T = 0 to about 0.95 ppm of C at T = 30 days; a 79% increase! If Sanjay would have performed water changes of just 10% at 7, 14, 21, and 28 days during this experimental time course, the TOC level would have increased to only 0.66 ppm of C - a 25% increase.
 
All protein skimmers only remove 20% -35% of the measurable TOC regardless how much they cost from DIY to $$$$

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FWIW, I contend that the data supporting that conclusion is weak. Not the data itself, which is fine for what it actually tests, but the interpretations that follow from it that many have expounded around the internet.

In the ocean, many organic molecules are added and reasonably quickly removed again from the water, by lots of different processes. Over time, what has largely resulted is a set of organic materials that are largely refractory to these removal processes, and they are only very slowly removed, some maybe only over centuries or longer.

So at any given instant, they may be the predominate organics present in seawater, but they are not necessarily those that are driving many biological processes, such as the carbon and nitrogen and phosphorus cycles that involve organic materials. The more easily metabolized organics are added and just as quickly removed. In this context, it might be a mistake to say that removing all of the total organics would be necessary to nearly completely shut down the biological processes involving organic materials. In fact, a reduction of only 10% in total organics might remove all of those rapidly turning over organic materials, and perhaps coincidently, those might be the ones that are most involved in at least some of the concerns of hobbyists with organics.

So in the context of these experiments, I wonder if the results would be substantially different if one started with tank water that was from an unskimmed system? Not just that the levels would be inherently higher and so might be more readily reduced, but that the actual types of organics may be quite different, and in some ways more reflective of the total organics dumped into the water column. In essence, skimming an aquarium may continuously remove those compounds that are more easily removed, and so leave behind those that are much harder to remove. Just as in the ocean then, we may have compounds building up that are resistant to skimming, and those may be a big portion of the TOC in a skimmed system. In that case then, it may not be surprising that when a study looks at how well a skimmer can remove them, you are looking at what is a refractory set of materials to start with.

I know the article made no such claims, but many folks may extrapolate the 10 or 20% removal fractions that were shown to say that only 10 or 20% of organics entering the water will be skimmed, and that might not be the case.
 
In more quantitative terms, the aggregate TOC values averaged for both skimmers increase from about 0.53 ppm of C at T = 0 to about 0.95 ppm of C at T = 30 days; a 79% increase! If Sanjay would have performed water changes of just 10% at 7, 14, 21, and 28 days during this experimental time course, the TOC level would have increased to only 0.66 ppm of C - a 25% increase.

How do you know how rapidly organics are added and removed from that system to predict what the organic levels would be for any time except immediately after a water change? A new equilibrium level of TOC (maybe the same one) might be reached in a few hours. :)



Mature reef tank houses enough TOC consuming organisms to effectively keep TOC levels at some acceptably low equilibrium level without the intervention of a protein skimmer.

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On what do you base that opinion?
 
Randy thank you for replying, All I know is what I have read, what I want to do is understand what I am doing and why it works or doesn't work. If my thinking is wrong please correct me

As far as the of PS removing only 20% to 35% of TOC , I took it as PS only remove what bubbles can trap, that is hydrophobic items.

" January 2009 Advanced Aquarist article; in summary, skimmers can only remove what bubbles trap, and bubbles only trap molecules and/or particles (i.e., bacteria, diatoms, etc.) with some compelling thermodynamic reason to adhere to the bubble's surface. On the molecular level, this surface association is typically driven by the molecule/particle having a hydrophobic (= water hating) patch that can be buried in the bubble surface/interior. This arrangement avoids the energetically penalizing juxtaposition of hydrophobic surfaces with (hydrophilic) water, and so overall the system energy is lowered (a favorable occurrence). Some of the molecules/particles in aquarium water will meet this hydrophobic region criterion, and some will not. The ones that do not have a sufficiently large hydrophobic patch will not interact with bubbles, and hence will not be removed by skimming. "œ
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature

Copied from another thread:
In essence, skimming an aquarium may continuously remove those compounds that are more easily removed, and so leave behind those that are much harder to remove. Just as in the ocean then, we may have compounds building up that are resistant to skimming, and those may be a big portion of the TOC in a skimmed system. In that case then, it may not be surprising that when a study looks at how well a skimmer can remove them, you are looking at what is a refractory set of materials to start with..

As far as water changes, I took that from the article also, it all depends what you remove and what you add back in, Garbage in and Garbage out.

On what do you base that opinion?

"œMature reef tank houses enough TOC consuming organisms to effectively keep TOC levels at some acceptably low equilibrium level without the intervention of a protein skimmer."

Not my opinion, it was a quote from the article,

I took from the article that if you have enough rock, sand, and aquarium surfaces that bacteria can colonize, then the TOC can be metabolized.
 
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"œMature reef tank houses enough TOC consuming organisms to effectively keep TOC levels at some acceptably low equilibrium level without the intervention of a protein skimmer."

Not my opinion, it was a quote from the article,

I took from the article that if you have enough rock, sand, and aquarium surfaces that bacteria can colonize, then the TOC can be metabolized.

Why would you want it to be metabolized and have the N and P released as opposed to exported?

Anyway, I have issues with that study, but I don't need to expound on them further here. :)
 
I have run several smaller thanks without a skimmer, and it has become my personal belief that on anything smaller than 30g it is just not worth running one. This is not to say others should follow suit with me as I tend to be fairly strict with water changes, and promote high bacterial filtration methods. The reason I started doing this to be honest was that skimmers on sumpless tanks were just too big of a pain, and a visual obstruction and they started to annoy me. As a result I tend to feed less aswell. On larger tanks however (my 90g for example) I will often turn off the skimmer for about 2 days after a water change, just to allow proteins which the corals feed off to build up again, any longer than that however and I tend to see diatoms and other high-protien related problems.

hth
 
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