I have always run my tank (120g mixed reef) with no skimmer, no sump. The tank has a DSB with plenum, a little heavy on the live rock, and light on the fish. Water changes of 20 gal every two months. Tank has had no problems (knock on wood) for 2+ years, coral growth is great, and everything seems healthy. I do remove detritus build up every three months or so. Test it weekly to ensure parameters are correct - feeding the corals is as simple as stirring the substrate a little bit and getting some 'snow' in the water column.
Skimmerless: who's doing it? pros and cons
- Thread starter rick12
- Start date
I don't have a problem going skimmerless:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYDb2JAoUUw
System has lighted and cryptic refugiums, calcium and kalkwasser reactors and gets a 5% weekly water change.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYDb2JAoUUw
System has lighted and cryptic refugiums, calcium and kalkwasser reactors and gets a 5% weekly water change.
I run the tanks in my main system with heavy skimming. I also run a 65 gallon softie tank with almost no skimming( just a hob red sea prism skimmer which removes almost nothing). Some of them are pictured here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2174523
The almost skimmerless softie tank is on page 2.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2174523
The almost skimmerless softie tank is on page 2.
I read that study several times in the past and took it mostly as a reason not to spend excessively on shiny skimmers given the relatively similar performance of the models tested regardless of price.
I agree with Randy about a changing organic mix in terms of non refractory moving to refractory (humic and fulvic),with the later being less bio available and less convertable into forms with an affinity for the air water interface in skimming. The newly introduced part of TOC is most likely to be acted on by bacteria which along with some by products have amphipathic qualities and are skimmable . These non refractory types are most active and more of a concern .
I don't think algae refugia are a substitute for skimming. The study doesn't actually say it is. They are good for oxygen, habitat, ph, and inorganic nitogen and phospahte removal but not organic carbon. The algae is photosynthetic so it actually produces most of its own organic carbon and removes little if any. Exudates actually contribute some as would any algae that was not harvested and decayed in the tank. I use a macro algae refugium but not for TOC reduction.
The article notes the presence of a "hydrophobic patch" on skimmable molecules. That does not mean the skimmer tends toward hydrophobic molecules. It tends toward those that are amphipathic as they are attracted the air water interface . hey have some hydrophylic parts and some hydrophobic parts. GAC attracts mostly hydrophobic molecules. Using both is my preference in systems where I wish to maintain relatively low levels of non refractory organics o the notion that they probably remove different types oforganicsand are thus complimentary.
As posted earlier, I run an near skimmerless system for certain corals, so I'm not a naysayer. I think it's useful to look at what a skimmer does and doesn't do in this type of discussion.
These articles by Randy Farely have much more information to help folks make informed decisions on this question:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/rhf/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/rhf/index.htm
I agree with Randy about a changing organic mix in terms of non refractory moving to refractory (humic and fulvic),with the later being less bio available and less convertable into forms with an affinity for the air water interface in skimming. The newly introduced part of TOC is most likely to be acted on by bacteria which along with some by products have amphipathic qualities and are skimmable . These non refractory types are most active and more of a concern .
I don't think algae refugia are a substitute for skimming. The study doesn't actually say it is. They are good for oxygen, habitat, ph, and inorganic nitogen and phospahte removal but not organic carbon. The algae is photosynthetic so it actually produces most of its own organic carbon and removes little if any. Exudates actually contribute some as would any algae that was not harvested and decayed in the tank. I use a macro algae refugium but not for TOC reduction.
The article notes the presence of a "hydrophobic patch" on skimmable molecules. That does not mean the skimmer tends toward hydrophobic molecules. It tends toward those that are amphipathic as they are attracted the air water interface . hey have some hydrophylic parts and some hydrophobic parts. GAC attracts mostly hydrophobic molecules. Using both is my preference in systems where I wish to maintain relatively low levels of non refractory organics o the notion that they probably remove different types oforganicsand are thus complimentary.
As posted earlier, I run an near skimmerless system for certain corals, so I'm not a naysayer. I think it's useful to look at what a skimmer does and doesn't do in this type of discussion.
These articles by Randy Farely have much more information to help folks make informed decisions on this question:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/rhf/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/rhf/index.htm
KCombs
They Call me "RifRaf"
I find this discussion interesting...
...and what always sorta bugged me was the technical hypocracy of those expounding the "super skimmers" then adding loads of foods, vitamins and "colorants" to make thier corals grow...
I get it that you need a good skimmer, but would the net effect be the same feeding a lil less then skimming a lil less?
...back to lurking///
...and what always sorta bugged me was the technical hypocracy of those expounding the "super skimmers" then adding loads of foods, vitamins and "colorants" to make thier corals grow...
I get it that you need a good skimmer, but would the net effect be the same feeding a lil less then skimming a lil less?
...back to lurking///
I find this discussion interesting...
...and what always sorta bugged me was the technical hypocracy of those expounding the "super skimmers" then adding loads of foods, vitamins and "colorants" to make thier corals grow...
I get it that you need a good skimmer, but would the net effect be the same feeding a lil less then skimming a lil less?
...back to lurking///
That's only true if what you skim and what you feed is the same. Since it is not, I don't see that argument carrying much weight. Many large creatures, including fish, do not likely gain much nutrition from dissolved organic matter.
breakdanc3
New member
on my setup i had an eshops skimmer rated for 100g on a 60g marineland cube and a small in sump refuge that ran a reverse light schedule 9hour display 15hr light in refuge. In the refugium i had chaeto and caulerpa originally which later turned into a hairy brown green red sluge algae . i would reduce this mess by half every once in awhile. I would vodka dose 1 capful everyday and i would remove a full cup of brown skimmate everyday. A couple months into this setup and i ran into cyano and green hair algae. Could be due to a bad RO filter (no DI) i haven't changed it in 2 years.
I build a bucket algae scrubber and put that into circulation. Took the skimmer out all on faith from reading on this bucket filter method. I also added a ceramic and biomax chamber for drain to enter into in the sump. and the old in sump refuge now just has bioballs floating on the surface no lights .. I started using carbon where as i didn't use before in hopes it would ease the transition till the algae would begin to grow on the screen. And i've removed by toothbrush as much algae in display as i could and let it filter into a polyfiber mesh below the drain sump for easy collection a day later.
A combination of all the changes that have taken place have changed my corals in the tank. its been 2 months and no water changes. .only algae removal via the screen. i've changed carbon twice. The mushroom corals which were not multiplying at all in the tank are now opening much more and dividing. Zoanthids continue multiply and have gotten larger. Size and growth rate of Leather corals has increased. Acans still look amazing. Blastos still look good .. they were doing good before really. Fungia corals have regained Green color in tentacles as well as longer tentacles. Acropora has regained its green fluorescence and my birdsnest acro has stopped dying from hair and cyano and is growing again where it was was receding before. There was no polyp extension on my old method. now the birdsnest has polyps open again.
This setup works for me. Im cleaning off hair algae more slowly. Cyano is gone thanks to Erythromycin treatment. My algae screen has still not gone green with turf algae its brown with traces of green, but im going to give it more time because all things are now working in my favor once again !
I build a bucket algae scrubber and put that into circulation. Took the skimmer out all on faith from reading on this bucket filter method. I also added a ceramic and biomax chamber for drain to enter into in the sump. and the old in sump refuge now just has bioballs floating on the surface no lights .. I started using carbon where as i didn't use before in hopes it would ease the transition till the algae would begin to grow on the screen. And i've removed by toothbrush as much algae in display as i could and let it filter into a polyfiber mesh below the drain sump for easy collection a day later.
A combination of all the changes that have taken place have changed my corals in the tank. its been 2 months and no water changes. .only algae removal via the screen. i've changed carbon twice. The mushroom corals which were not multiplying at all in the tank are now opening much more and dividing. Zoanthids continue multiply and have gotten larger. Size and growth rate of Leather corals has increased. Acans still look amazing. Blastos still look good .. they were doing good before really. Fungia corals have regained Green color in tentacles as well as longer tentacles. Acropora has regained its green fluorescence and my birdsnest acro has stopped dying from hair and cyano and is growing again where it was was receding before. There was no polyp extension on my old method. now the birdsnest has polyps open again.
This setup works for me. Im cleaning off hair algae more slowly. Cyano is gone thanks to Erythromycin treatment. My algae screen has still not gone green with turf algae its brown with traces of green, but im going to give it more time because all things are now working in my favor once again !
A turf scrubber will use up some nitrates and phosphate but not organic carbon. Leathers mushrooms and some lps that thrive in turbid waters like blastomossa and acanestrea my do very well with higher organic levels to meet some of their heterotrophic needs via absorbtion to a point.
In any case ,the skimmer removes some organics,more when carbon dosing( vodka vinegar etc is used) and provides aeration , The granulated activated removes some organics. An ats in a bucket or otherwise will add to the total organic carbon as the algae makes it's own via potosynthesis. So running an ats does not mean a skimmer is not needed. They do different things.
In any case ,the skimmer removes some organics,more when carbon dosing( vodka vinegar etc is used) and provides aeration , The granulated activated removes some organics. An ats in a bucket or otherwise will add to the total organic carbon as the algae makes it's own via potosynthesis. So running an ats does not mean a skimmer is not needed. They do different things.
geaux xman
New member
180G FOWLR heavy stock, I run a Reef Ocotopus SRO3000int skimmer.
72g FOWLR no skimmer. I just have 1 4" scribbled angelfish in there. For now, I will do a 20g WC every 3 weeks. When I add more fish, I'll do 20g WC every 2 weeks.
I really like the simplicity of skimmerless on the smaller tank. I dont have to worry about skimmer overflow, top-off's, or anything. I use an AquaClear HOB with carbon.
72g FOWLR no skimmer. I just have 1 4" scribbled angelfish in there. For now, I will do a 20g WC every 3 weeks. When I add more fish, I'll do 20g WC every 2 weeks.
I really like the simplicity of skimmerless on the smaller tank. I dont have to worry about skimmer overflow, top-off's, or anything. I use an AquaClear HOB with carbon.
ReefNation
New member
I hear a lot of great observations and opinions based on those coming throgh this thread, but has anyone empirically looked at what specific quantities of "wastes" show up in protein skimmers? I'd be curious to see if anyone has a link to some analysis of that.
whatcaneyedo
Member
Feature Article: Elemental Analysis of Skimmate: What Does a Protein Skimmer Actually Remove from Aquarium Water?
By Ken S. Feldman
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature/
KCombs
They Call me "RifRaf"
^ I kinda feel this way (I'm running a 30G now w/o one).... I've had SW tanks for 35yrs... didn't even use a decent skimmer until 95' (Skilters don't count ha ha)
...I wouldn't say skimmers are a absolute....
Thanks for the link. I've read that before but it'sbeen a couple of years
. I think it is helpful and informative. But, what's in lhe skimmate will largely depend on what's in the tank,imo. For example, tanks dosed with organic carbon likely have more bacteria in the skimmate and maybe less diatom shell material and guts,maybe more phospaorous and nitrogen too. . Perhaps, dosing regimens for calcium and carbonate supllementation affect particlulates bubbling out too. So,I'd be careful about extrapolating the findings too broadly.
. I think it is helpful and informative. But, what's in lhe skimmate will largely depend on what's in the tank,imo. For example, tanks dosed with organic carbon likely have more bacteria in the skimmate and maybe less diatom shell material and guts,maybe more phospaorous and nitrogen too. . Perhaps, dosing regimens for calcium and carbonate supllementation affect particlulates bubbling out too. So,I'd be careful about extrapolating the findings too broadly.
ReefNation
New member
Great link, its interesting to read that one a few times and then re read this thread. Some of the information seems spot on with observations and some seems contradictory. I guess there is still a lot we need to learn about the minute interactions that are occurring on a coral reef!
coralsnaked
New member
Sana
What is a 150 recirc octopus skimmer?
What is a 150 recirc octopus skimmer?
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