Skimmerless: who's doing it? pros and cons

I'm about to go skimmerless on my 400g mixed reef tank...

I have been fighting Bryopsis algae for 7 months now... believe me when I say I do keep good husbandry and nutrients on check, still this algae showed up...

I have had many reef tanks for many years and never got a hair algae problem like this one...

First I tried to get rid of the algae with heavy wet skimming and carbon dosing which didn't worked at all... then I added an Upflow algae scrubber and reduced skimming and things started to get better and algae to die... I addedd this week end a waterfall ATS and once that ATS screen have really started to grow green algae I will turnoff my skimmer and give the ATS/UAS a chance to convince me about their effectiveness... If everything continues as it is right now then you can consider me a skimmerless tank owner and ATS lover
 
acorral said:
I'm about to go skimmerless on my 400g mixed reef tank...

I have been fighting Bryopsis algae for 7 months now... believe me when I say I do keep good husbandry and nutrients on check, still this algae showed up...

I have had many reef tanks for many years and never got a hair algae problem like this one...

First I tried to get rid of the algae with heavy wet skimming and carbon dosing which didn't worked at all... then I added an Upflow algae scrubber and reduced skimming and things started to get better and algae to die... I addedd this week end a waterfall ATS and once that ATS screen have really started to grow green algae I will turnoff my skimmer and give the ATS/UAS a chance to convince me about their effectiveness... If everything continues as it is right now then you can consider me a skimmerless tank owner and ATS lover
Click to expand...

I like the waterfall better. I've had better luck with it. Me personally I'm not a believer in the new guidelines. I tried it and Imy phosphates never went down. I went back to the old guidelines based on tank size and I have been at zero phosphates for a while now. Do what works best for your tank
 
Jeez I better run home and take out the Sps out my tank that have been in there for some time now cause all of my other corals are thriving too.!!! You are aware that there are many of us that run skimmerless algae scrubber tanks with Sps along with other corals? My reef is mostly soft and Lps and I have and had Sps thrive also.
You also realize there is two sticky threads above this one that are solely for algae scrubbers? What are they for, the basic one is for people under 1000 posts to say they don't work and the advanced is for people over 1000 posts to say they don't work? There is also a whole website dedicated to algae scrubbers. Trust me, they do work and work well. All of the things you talk about may sound impressive but don't take place at all. Can you show any proof of what you say? The only proof I need is what I see when I go in my house.

That ridiculous. Read a book and learn a little about it or just do some searches. I'm certainly not going to waste my time dealing with nonsense and attitude and misrepresentations.
My skimmed system is available for anyone who wants to review it in the November 2011 tank of the month article . The unskimmed tank is available in other threads. I'm not posting it here since it wouldn't add to the discussion .

Who said ats don't work. I didn't. They do what they do reasonably well( lower phosphorous and nitrogen) if well designed and run well. They can also add oxygen during periods of photsynthesis, use some CO2 and respire some at night and the flow over them can add to aeration. Those are good things except for the respiration. Like any filtration option they have pros and cons. They don't remove organics; they add them for better or worse. That's my original brief staement which does not warrant a snide response followed by derisive laughter.
I have read the stickies and of the threads on them. I've used them in the past.

Some folks run skimerless with some sps but there are not many long term that I can find. . I don't. It doesn't work for sps for me. What sps do you have ? For how long? I have tried mine( birdsnest, acrop montis ) in my skimmerless tank and they don't do well. They do very well in the main system where organics are lower due to skimming and gac.

This thread is about the pros and cons of skimming. It's not approproiate to hijack it to an ats endorsement. Try to stay on topic. To imply and ats is a substitute for a skimmer as you did in your original post is just wrong. They do different things. Skimming does remove some organics and ats does not. An ats removes inorganic phosphate and nitrogen; a skimmer does not. simple as that.

No need to run home I'm sure your sps may be fine at least for now but you might want to study up on organics or marine organisms or at least etiquette. .
 
tmz said:
Jeez I better run home and take out the Sps out my tank that have been in there for some time now cause all of my other corals are thriving too.!!! You are aware that there are many of us that run skimmerless algae scrubber tanks with Sps along with other corals? My reef is mostly soft and Lps and I have and had Sps thrive also.
You also realize there is two sticky threads above this one that are solely for algae scrubbers? What are they for, the basic one is for people under 1000 posts to say they don't work and the advanced is for people over 1000 posts to say they don't work? There is also a whole website dedicated to algae scrubbers. Trust me, they do work and work well. All of the things you talk about may sound impressive but don't take place at all. Can you show any proof of what you say? The only proof I need is what I see when I go in my house.

That ridiculous. Read a book and learn a little about it or just do some searches. I'm certainly not going to waste my time dealing with nonsense and attitude and misrepresentations.
My skimmed system is available for anyone who wants to review it in the November 2011 tank of the month article . The unskimmed tank is available in other threads. I'm not posting it here since it wouldn't add to the discussion .

Who said ats don't work. I didn't. They do what they do reasonably well( lower phosphorous and nitrogen) if well designed and run well. They can also add oxygen during periods of photsynthesis, use some CO2 and respire some at night and the flow over them can add to aeration. Those are good things except for the respiration. Like any filtration option they have pros and cons. They don't remove organics; they add them for better or worse. That's my original brief staement which does not warrant a snide response followed by derisive laughter.
I have read the stickies and of the threads on them. I've used them in the past.

Some folks run skimerless with some sps but there are not many long term that I can find. . I don't. It doesn't work for sps for me. What sps do you have ? For how long? I have tried mine( birdsnest, acrop montis ) in my skimmerless tank and they don't do well. They do very well in the main system where organics are lower due to skimming and gac.

This thread is about the pros and cons of skimming. It's not approproiate to hijack it to an ats endorsement. Try to stay on topic. To imply and ats is a substitute for a skimmer as you did in your original post is just wrong. They do different things. Skimming does remove some organics and ats does not. An ats removes inorganic phosphate and nitrogen; a skimmer does not. simple as that.

No need to run home I'm sure your sps may be fine at least for now but you might want to study up on organics or marine organisms or at least etiquette. .
Click to expand...

This will be the last thing I comment on with you with this subject because I too have better things to do. I am well aware of organics and what scrubbers take out and add. Trust me these organics are welcome by my. They are coral food, free coral food. They are DOC proteins and DOC amino acids. You really shouldn't assume what someone else knows.
As far as the misrepresentations go, where did I do that? If anyone looks back it was you sir who tried to misrepresent scrubbers and skimmers. Especially your comment that sps will die in a skimmerless tank. Many have kept sps in a skimmerless tank including myself. I was going to leave a link for a former TOTM winner on another site but I wasn't sure what the rule was on that. Any google search will find many that grow sps in a skimmerless tank.
In my tank and many others a scrubber is not a substitute for a skimmer, it's. A direct replacement. Yes they work differently but the end result is the same, the control of n and p. skimmers rely on pulling out the organics before they break down in which links have been provided here on their efficiency. That is why with skimmers you have to run GAC and GFO. Skimmers dont do the complete job. Scrubbers remove the breakdown of these organics, in which there is no scientific study but being my and many other tanks have 0 n and p I would say that was pretty efficient.
In closing I put scrubbers here in this thread to help others go skimmerless. It has worked well for me and many others. For you to say it has nothing to do with the subject you are wrong. It is a viable option for those who want to try skimmerless and a very good way of controlling nutrients. If you want to talk about etiquette please look at yourself. Don't tell people what to discuss in a forum. Scrubbers and anything else that are used to go skimmerless has all to do with what is being discussed here and I really don't appreciate and I'm sure others don't appreciate someone telling us what to talk about.
 
If GAC effectively removes TOCs and ATS is efficient at removing N and P while adding some organics to the system, how effective would running GAC+ATS be instead of a skimmer?
 
How does GAC compete with an ATS? Is it the concept that if it removes the TOCs they don't break down into N and P, thus ATS growth is slowed?

If that is the case, maybe run a smaller amount of GAC to get the best of both worlds?

I run GFO/GAC on my reef but only use half of what BRS recommends in hopes I don't starve the system.
 
It really is a middle point, GAC ddo absorbs some inorganics but its intended for absorbing organics

Bacteria converts some organics to inorganica that later feed the algae

There are alao some organics consumed by the algae

So the gac is a little bit of competition to the algae but more than competition, used in lower quantities than traditionally acts as complement to remove toxic organics that bacteria doesnt consume at all
 
Try it. I'd be interested in seeing the results. You need thick green algae to be an efficient filter. Gfo may take away what the algae needs. I don't know first hand. I have read that several times on here and other sites.
 
GFO, in the other hand, can easily starve the ATS... beside that it will induce an unbalanced condition between nitrate and phosphate, most likely leading to oscillations between cyano and dynoflaglate problems...

As a perosnal choice I stick to ATS to remove PO4 and NO3 and keep them in balance, and sporadic use of GAC in lower quantities...
 
I didn't mean to imply to run GFO and ATS, just GAC and ATS. I know the GFO would be in direct competition with the ATS. I was just stating I run GFO/GAC on my reef.
 
A few facts and observations to help decide your approach:

Green algaes are ;limited by low PO4 at around .03ppm. They use nitrogen, phosphorous and oxygen . Depending on how much gfo is used levels can be reduced to less than .03ppm limiting their growth.

Elevated TOC is harmful to many corals. In my case it's very clear that sps corals do very well in my main system which is heavily skimmed , and supported with gfo, and gac. They perish in the unskimmed system even though PO4 and NOP3 are relatively low there. That is not a misrepresentation ;it's a true observation.Contrarywise, xenia and capnella can live but are less vibrant won't grow in the main system.

Many organic compounds such as humic and fulvic subtances are refractory( resist breakdown by bacterial activity) and are not helpful to living things. Some yellow the water.They build up over time and there is a need for balance in import/ export,imo. They are not welcome in excess in my tanks as disooved organic material or rotting food or accummulations of detritus.

Organic carbon is a nutrient ; it's not just not just about N and P.. Even highly photosynthetic corals need some organic carbon. Some need more than others thus in part variations in which corals do well in cetain sytems vs others. There are millions of organics;not all are bio available.

GAC removes primarily hyrdophobic organics( those repelled by water).

Skimming removes primarily those that are amphipathic( have different polarity on different sides) so on side is pulled to the water and one is repelled by it trapping it in the air/water interface.
Both skimming and gac remove organics but different types.


Algaes use primarily inorganic nitrogen( ammonia, nitrite nitrate) and inorganic phosphate. The produce organics of various types from CO2, water and light.

Overall, GAC is likely more effective,per teh litterature, in pulling total organics out than skimming depending on the nature of the organics in the tank and the quality and ongoing condition of the carbon product in use. At least one study found gac alone reduced TOC(total organic carbon ) by around 30% and when used in conjunction with ozone( which breaks up large organic compounds) the removal level was about 70%. This seems to show altering the organics leads to more showing affinity for gac absortion. Skimming does considerably less in terms of organic carbon according to several studies. Skimming does more removal when organic carbon is dosed to boost bacterial populations since most bacteria fit the amphipathic profile.

Summary :
Some organic carbon is necessary. An en masse measure of phtoplankton in the oceans known as the Redfield ratio showed a ratio of 116 parts organic carbon to 16 parts nitrogen to 1 part phosphate;.
Some corals rely on organic carbon absorbtion for some of their needs(xenia, capnella ,etc) .Others don't need much at all since they are more heavily photosynthetic and rely on feeding as well. Some are adversely effected by excess organics including things like glucose and other monomers.
Man y organics are not bioavailbe.
Excess is harmful. iIt comes in with foods and is produced by photosynthetic organisms.
Organics are very diverse( any carbon atom bound to hydrogen quailfies), some are alleopathic/toxic.
There are various methods for export with variable affinity for different types of organics in each of them.
 
jwoyshnar said:
This will be the last thing I comment on with you with this subject because I too have better things to do. I am well aware of organics and what scrubbers take out and add. Trust me these organics are welcome by my. They are coral food, free coral food. They are DOC proteins and DOC amino acids. You really shouldn't assume what someone else knows.
As far as the misrepresentations go, where did I do that? If anyone looks back it was you sir who tried to misrepresent scrubbers and skimmers. Especially your comment that sps will die in a skimmerless tank. Many have kept sps in a skimmerless tank including myself. I was going to leave a link for a former TOTM winner on another site but I wasn't sure what the rule was on that. Any google search will find many that grow sps in a skimmerless tank.
In my tank and many others a scrubber is not a substitute for a skimmer, it's. A direct replacement. You really shouldn't assume what someone else knows. and p. skimmers rely on pulling out the organics before they break down in which links have been provided here on their efficiency. That is why with skimmers you have to run GAC and GFO. Skimmers dont do the complete job. Scrubbers remove the breakdown of these organics, in which there is no scientific study but being my and many other tanks have 0 n and p I would say that was pretty efficient.
In closing I put scrubbers here in this thread to help others go skimmerless. It has worked well for me and many others. For you to say it has nothing to do with the subject you are wrong. It is a viable option for those who want to try skimmerless and a very good way of controlling nutrients. If you want to talk about etiquette please look at yourself. Don't tell people what to discuss in a forum. Scrubbers and anything else that are used to go skimmerless has all to do with what is being discussed here and I really don't appreciate and I'm sure others don't appreciate someone telling us what to talk about.
Click to expand...

There you go again:spin2:

I am well aware of organics and what scrubbers take out and add. Trust me these organics are welcome by my. They are coral food, free coral food. They are DOC proteins and DOC amino acids.

Obviously not. Why should anyone trust you or distrust you for that matter? "trust me" really?:lol2:

You really shouldn't assume what someone else knows.

I don't ,your posts show what you know and don 't and don't want to know very well all by themselves.

Scubbers do not remove organics ;they produce them. managing them is important including ther organic carbon they hold. It is a nutrient. Simple. Skimmers remove some organics. They are not the same as an ATS..

As far as the misrepresentations go, where did I do that?

Where do I start?:confused: Here are a few:I never said ats don't work yet you keep misrepresenting that. So, once again.

Skimmers and ats do different things. ATS though useful for N an P reduction in well designed and maintained applications is not a substitue for a skimmer they do different things.

You state your sps are thiriving skimmerless yet you pulled your skimmer from the 180 a week ago. Huh? When I asked which sps you had I was truly interseted since I can't get them to grow in the skimmerless set up I have ; they thrive in the skimmed set up. That's not a misrepresentation it's a true observation ,ime. You ignored the question. Do you really have sps which ones? How long have they thrived skimerless? Any pictures?



Etiquette:

Folks can and shuld certainly talk about what they want.
However, attacking a poster and a simple staement of fact about organics removal to hijack a thread with misrepresentations ,snide comments and turning it into a testimonial on why ats is a substitue/replacement for skimming and everything eslsethat ails a tank is misleading, long on opinion and short on relevant facts and just rude.

There are many filtration systems and options for achieving balance in organics , nitrate and phosphate; inlcuding organic carbon dosing, skimming, gac, gfo, resins, macroalgae refugia,ozone, sandbeds to name a few. Yet all the folks using those options aren't compelled to attack simple facts. . They all have pros and cons ; it's not really about which is better or which combination is better. It's which is the best for th type of tank and system one choses to run and the proclivities of the individual reefer. I think sharing factual anecdotal experiences is very useful ,(knowing which sps grow and fo how long would be helpful for example)as is exploring what they each do and don't. Selling one technique over the others based on "trust me" is sophomoric , iherently misleading and not very enlightening.
 
tmz said:
There you go again:spin2:

I am well aware of organics and what scrubbers take out and add. Trust me these organics are welcome by my. They are coral food, free coral food. They are DOC proteins and DOC amino acids.

Obviously not. Why should anyone trust you or distrust you for that matter? "trust me" really?:lol2:

You really shouldn't assume what someone else knows.

I don't ,your posts show what you know and don 't and don't want to know very well all by themselves.

Scubbers do not remove organics ;they produce them. managing them is important including ther organic carbon they hold. It is a nutrient. Simple. Skimmers remove some organics. They are not the same as an ATS..

As far as the misrepresentations go, where did I do that?

Where do I start?:confused: Here are a few:I never said ats don't work yet you keep misrepresenting that. So, once again.

Skimmers and ats do different things. ATS though useful for N an P reduction in well designed and maintained applications is not a substitue for a skimmer they do different things.

You state your sps are thiriving skimmerless yet you pulled your skimmer from the 180 a week ago. Huh? When I asked which sps you had I was truly interseted since I can't get them to grow in the skimmerless set up I have ; they thrive in the skimmed set up. That's not a misrepresentation it's a true observation ,ime. You ignored the question. Do you really have sps which ones? How long have they thrived skimerless? Any pictures?



Etiquette:

Folks can and shuld certainly talk about what they want.
However, attacking a poster and a simple staement of fact about organics removal to hijack a thread with misrepresentations ,snide comments and turning it into a testimonial on why ats is a substitue/replacement for skimming and everything eslsethat ails a tank is misleading, long on opinion and short on relevant facts and just rude.

There are many filtration systems and options for achieving balance in organics , nitrate and phosphate; inlcuding organic carbon dosing, skimming, gac, gfo, resins, macroalgae refugia,ozone, sandbeds to name a few. Yet all the folks using those options aren't compelled to attack simple facts. . They all have pros and cons ; it's not really about which is better or which combination is better. It's which is the best for th type of tank and system one choses to run and the proclivities of the individual reefer. I think sharing factual anecdotal experiences is very useful ,(knowing which sps grow and fo how long would be helpful for example)as is exploring what they each do and don't. Selling one technique over the others based on "trust me" is sophomoric , iherently misleading and not very enlightening.
Click to expand...

Ugh I cant believe I am going to comment again but I blame myself for this because I left my last post short as I was in a hurry.
You are right in the fact that I just took my 180 skimmer off line two weeks ago. That skimmer was rated for half of what my water volume is. The tank I was talking about was my 90 that I ran for two years with no skimmer, just an algae scrubber. The sps I grew in that tank is as follows, pink lemonade, red planet, Gary's unknown, Bali tri color, stylophora, hydnopora and many monti caps at different stages. Here is a pick of the Bali tri color I had. I sold this as I go through my phases of hating sps because I like coral that moves.
a61fab7b.jpg

The only sps I have in my 180 is a few monti caps and a large colony of stylophora. Since taking the skimmer offline the stylophora polyps came out big time, more than they ever have before. Why? Because of the ORGANICS given off by the algae scrubber that are not being pulled out by the skimmer. This is why I said I'm fine with what the algae scrubber gives off. Before turning off the apskimmer, all of my corals closed up at night. Now the polyps extend through most of the night. As these new ORGANICS break down in my tank the algae scrubber uses it to replenish the algae to harvest. Kinda like a circle of life. Fish and coral give off waste, scrubber absorbs breakdown of waste, gives off more ORGANICS for the corals to feed on again.
how do you feel like I'm high jacking this thread about algae scrubber talk. The second post on this thread talks about algae scrubbers. I did a search for skimmer.net or .com and couldn't find anything but there is an algae scrubber dot net that is full of success stories of people using just scrubbers and they have sps. Maybe if you are struggling keeping sps alive you should go there as you may learn something that many people are doing that you say can't be done. Being my 90 ran for two years without a skimmer how much longer would it have to run before the ORGANICS took over?
This will be the last post I put here directed to you but it will not be the last post I put on this thread as I feel I have some great info on scrubbers that can help people so please once again don't tell me what to post or where. I'm not sure your beef is but seriously, get over it. This is a hobby and trust me your word is not the final word on everything. Obviously I'm doing something better than you as I can, have and do grow sps in a skimmerless tank.
66f4f662.jpg

This is a red planet I grew from a 1 stalk frag to this in 3 months
f19c80d4.jpg

My bubble coral that the feeder tentacles are out all day and most of the night.
a3d60060.jpg

My elegance coral that's the size of a volleyball
7c424818.jpg

My acan with a smaller elegance behind it. Aren't elegance corals almost impossible to keep these days? Hmmmm
4ac3112e.jpg

Yes I'm sure like you say these results can't happen even though I've been doing it for over two years now. Please move on and enjoy your life and your hobby. This info is intended for people who want to try something new so please don't try to scare them off. Don't worry about what I do because really I can care less what you do. This will once again be the last time i post to you.

Anyone interested please feel free to ask me anything, I will be more than happy to help anyway I can. Scrubbers do work and work well as something that can work very well with a skimmer or as I have seen better without.
 
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