Small seagrass tank possible?

[jpappy789]

Hello all! I'm new to the salty side of fishkeeping although I'm somewhat experienced when it comes to FW planted tanks...which is why I'm thinking about starting a seagrass tank. That, and I recently moved to FL and would spend every minute on the coast if I could. I guess I didn't even realize there was this "niche" in the hobby outside of those using them in refugiums, but I'm hoping the experienced people here can help.

So I've got an unused 10g aquarium and I'm wondering if that would be enough to dedicate to a seagrass-focused setup. If possible, I'd like to model it loosely after the IRL, at least in terms of which exact species are present. I was thinking high end brackish, mainly because I want to stay away from fully marine fish. It seems that there are a few different killifish and small livebearers native to the area, although I'm not sure if they are associated with seagrass beds or not.

Then, in terms of which plant species I'd choose, I'm a bit lost. The biggest problem with this small of a tank would be lack of height. At only 12" minus whatever I would need for a DSB, I'd only get maybe 7-8" of growing space. That seems to be enough for H. engelmannii and possibly H. wrightii based on Sarah Lardizibal's write up (which has been extremely helpful). Or maybe Ruppia maritima, which seems to do fine at lower salinity as well...? I'm not sure. Might also come down to availability, but that's getting a bit ahead of myself.

I have plenty of other questions regarding the setup, but I suppose the best thing to do first is to see if anyone has any opinions on whether this would even work given the small space/height. Thanks in advance!

 

[jpappy789]

Anyone???

 

[3D-Reef]

:wavehand:Howdy!Welcome too RC.

Sounds like the making of cool little tank.
I haven't tried a FW planted tank yet.Maybe,one of these days, after I win the lottery. :dance:
I have focused on,and kept,mainly T,testudinum over the years.
Though I did have H,wrighttii for a few years and then gave it away to an other aquarist.So I can't really speak from experience on a couple of Your choices.

I think any of the three could work,except maybe H,engelmannii.I don't know its salinity range off hand.But it would be the shortest height wise.

H,wrightii is found up river from T,t and in lower salinity.Maybe high brackish-NSW?

R,maritima has the widest range.From lower brackish up to three times NSW.

Any of the three should only need a couple of inches of sand too grow in.

As to availability...living in FL...it maybe easier to collect it yourself.Just be sure to check with 'Fish and game' on the laws first.

 

[jpappy789]

Thanks! Lottery for a planted tank!? Funny, because I'd probably finally do a reef tank in that situation. Plenty of easy and cheap routes for a low-tech planted tank. High-tech's a bit much for my wallet...

Good to know that height wont be too much of an issue.

I was wondering what people tend to do for substrate. Seems like sand/mud is the best? Are there good commercial muds out there?

I suppose I could go collect some, but I'd rather not disturb anything if possible (I probably wont collect any plants either) and I don't want to introduce anything unsavory either...

 

[3D-Reef]

:spin2:Hehehe,My reef has left Me broke.So I would need the lottery for a bigger house and money for another tank.:lol2:

Yeah,a combo of of sand and mud works pretty good.IMO Miracle mud is the best.Along with some sugarfine sand.

Collecting grass is the best way to establish seagrass.You get a 'plug of grass' ,with the mud, that will withstand transplanting better.Plus all of the associated microbes.
But I hear Ya if you don't want to go that route.
However You'll probably limited on what grass You can get.

 

[jpappy789]

Huh, looking at the pricing on the mud ($80 for 10 lbs!?) maybe I will go collect some myself

Guess I'll be saving up for this tank. I'm moving (a short distance) this summer so I doubt anything will be started until then anyways. But always good to start researching.

Curious as to how much of what I would consider to be "saltwater specific" things are needed...skimmer, for instance? Do people typically dose for things like calcium or alkalinity or just let a marine mix take care of that? Speaking of which, I'd appreciate any suggestions on a good synthetic salt mix.

I'm so used to just using whatever source water out of the tap I have, adding dechlorinator and some carbon/nutrients for plants along the way, and not really doing much else...

 

[JLynn]

You don't necessarily need a skimmer; it mostly depends on how high your bioload is. If, for example, you had seahorses and seagrass, you would need a skimmer. On the other hand, if you just had a few gobies or maybe some cardinalfish, you would not need a skimmer.

Calcium and alkalinity are dosed in situations where there is something (ie corals or coralline algae) sucking up those nutrients from the water. In a tank with just seagrass and sand, you would not need to dose.

I have heard that the ESV 2-part salt mix is the best, but it is also expensive. The general consensus is that no salt mix is really superior to another, and you will be fine as long as you know what is in your salt mix (some have more magnesium, etc than others). If you are looking for cheap, Instant Ocean is one of the cheapest. Just checking, but you are planning on getting an RO/DI, right?

For extra reading, I think you will find this article to be very helpful: http://www.chucksaddiction.com/seagrass.html

 

[jpappy789]

RO/DI is a definite yes, I know that much about the salty side. I may be getting one myself, but I will have to figure out whether my new apartment's water pressure is consistent enough to handle one. That's the only reason I don't have one now (I also grow carnivorous plants, and having low TDS water on hand would be soooo nice).

My LFS does sell it, although the one time I bought some I got funky TDS numbers...as in it didn't look like RO/DI or even just RO. Not sure if filter membranes were dirty or what but I didn't press them about it since it was a one time thing, and I don't frequent there very often anyways.

Right now I'm thinking "no" to corals, especially if I'm on the lower end of the salinity scale. Probably would be low bioload as well.

 

[JLynn]

If you don't run a skimmer, you should probably have some other form of filtration. If you don't want live rock in your display, you could put some in a Hagen AquaClear filter. That would be similar to what Halophila did with his/her nano planted tank (which you should definitely check out, if you haven't already). If not live rock, then perhaps run a little carbon reactor?

 

[jpappy789]

I have plenty of spare Aquaclear HOBs that would probably work.

I forgot about LR...is there a salinity limitation on what's considered "live" and what is just a bunch of porous rock that could be inhabited by some good bacteria?

Along similar lines, seems like people recommend a maturation type period of the substrate before adding any grasses?

 

[3D-Reef]

IMO-The maturation period is more to allow for the bacteria to become established.Rather than nutrient build up in the substrate.

 

[MorganAtlanta]

If you are in Florida, you can collect everything you need. Check out Live-Plants.com if you do want to buy plants. They are from Bradenton and collect and cultivate there. They suggest Eco-complete mixed with aragonite as a substrate, but if I were you I'd just go collect some mud, grass and a few rocks so that you get the right bacteria.

I'd say 10 gallons might be tough to maintain stability wise, but you should be able to put it all together pretty cheaply.

I'd put a couple gorgonians in there too.

You'll need lots of light for sea grass. A couple 40W 6500K CFLs would probably work.

Take a siene net and sweep through a grass bed to get some small fish, crabs, shrimp, etc.

 

[jpappy789]

IMO-The maturation period is more to allow for the bacteria to become established.Rather than nutrient build up in the substrate.

Ah ok, I wasn't quite sure what that meant for saltwater. Are we talking about just nitrifiers or bacteria that are more closely associated with the seagrass? I read that some seagrass species are thought to have some "obligate" microbial populations, in a loose sense of the word, found in the root zones that really helped with transplanting, but it seems like the only real way to establish those would be to add the grasses.

If you are in Florida, you can collect everything you need. Check out Live-Plants.com if you do want to buy plants. They are from Bradenton and collect and cultivate there. They suggest Eco-complete mixed with aragonite as a substrate, but if I were you I'd just go collect some mud, grass and a few rocks so that you get the right bacteria.

I'd say 10 gallons might be tough to maintain stability wise, but you should be able to put it all together pretty cheaply.

I'd put a couple gorgonians in there too.

You'll need lots of light for sea grass. A couple 40W 6500K CFLs would probably work.

Take a siene net and sweep through a grass bed to get some small fish, crabs, shrimp, etc.

Depending on the extent of my current research, I may inadvertently end up with some extras for myself right from the IRL. Collecting for personal use has always seemed "faux paux" to me (no issues with others as long as its within the confines of the law). But depending on costs, it may be a nice way to trim the budget of the setup. I'd certainly put more thought into it if I lived closer to the coast.

Anyways, mentioning gorgonians peaked my interest. I'm a total newbie when it comes to any corals so I'm not sure what their requirements are...other than the aforementioned Ca/CO3 dosing if needed. Are there any that can handle salinity on the lower end? I'm not totally set on where that number is going to end up, but in terms of fish I'd really like to go with some smaller species of killifish or livebearers...but I wouldn't be surprised if I became attached to a strictly SW species either!

I'm not sure what I'll be doing for lighting. I've used CFLs in the past for planted tanks, but they are such a PITA to rig up and look presentable. I'm not a DIY person otherwise I'd build my own canopy...I was probably going to buy a small T5HO fixture (or try to find an older one that I probably still have somewhere). IF I went with some "easy" corals, what type of lighting would I need then? I'm assuming at least something with an emphasis on the blue side of the spectrum, correct?

Regarding the substrate, that's curious that they recommend some Eco complete. I do have extra "fine" grade that I could use, but the thought of mixing the black EC with whiter sand seems off to me from an aesthetic POV. I might see how Michael's experimenting with it turns out first.

 

[Mpy]

The IRL has quite a bit of variance in critters along the length of it, where were you thinking about collecting? There is a pretty high variance in salinity along it as well, Melbourne is closer to the mid 20s ppt, and Sebastian is closer to 30s ppt. Im not sure if it would be beneficial or a hindrance, but there are crown conchs that are native to the IRL that would help to mix the sand bed.

 

[jpappy789]

I wasn't really quite sure where along the spectrum I'd be headed, to be honest. Initially I wanted to stay "brackish" and was thinking more along the lines of 20-25 ppt...but I'm rethinking whether I want to try some sort of corals or not.

But since I know next to nothing about them, I'm not even sure if anything native is even a good fit for this tank or if they are available... http://www.sms.si.edu/irlspec/Phyl_Cnidar.htm

 

[3D-Reef]

Ah ok, I wasn't quite sure what that meant for saltwater. Are we talking about just nitrifiers or bacteria that are more closely associated with the seagrass? I read that some seagrass species are thought to have some "obligate" microbial populations, in a loose sense of the word, found in the root zones that really helped with transplanting, but it seems like the only real way to establish those would be to add the grasses.

The two bacteria I have in My notes are actinomycetes and mycorrhiza.(probably mean more to you all than Me lol)

It depends on which species of plant.Some are more structured than others.
They basically fall into two categories.Colonizers,which are usually the first to grow into an area,have shallow root systems,and are not as well 'structured'. Climax sp. are generally taller,long lived and are highly structured.With T,testudinum (T,t) being the most structured of all the seagrasses.

This structure basically is a system of tubes in a vascular bundle,air lacunae, allowing gases (O2,N,CO2) or nutrients to be 'pumped'(for the lack of a better word) from the leaves down too the root hairs or out too the apical meristem (growing root tip).
This supports and regulates which/what bacteria survive.Whether it's nitrifiers or denitrifiers.But I think that denitrification is more important and the hardest to establish.That's why I recommend the carbon dosing.
I say more important because in a seagrass bed,unlike what we've been taught with regular DSB's where nitrates are converted too N2 gas,they are actually denitrated back too ammonium.

I don't think..let Me rephrase that...I don't know if it matters if the grass has specific bacteria or whether just denitrifiers in general.

 

[3D-Reef]

I don't think..let Me rephrase that...I don't know if it matters if the grass has specific bacteria or whether just denitrifiers in general.

Boy howdy,you guys are making Me think too much!:headwally:

It's these denitrifiers that are in the cyano bacteria family that break the N2 bond and supply a good portion of N to the plant/bacteria.In addition to the above.Starting the N cycle all over.

 

[jpappy789]

I'm confused...

Complete denitrification is NO3 >>> various intermediates >>> N2

Nitrogen fixation is N2 >>> NH4

Based on your last post regarding cyanobacteria, I'm assuming you meant the latter...but could you clear that up?

 

[3D-Reef]

Yeah,it can Very confusing.Sorry if I used the wrong phrase.

De-mineralization is NO3>>intermediates>>NH3

Ammonium is the main/prefered form of N in a seagrass bed.

 

[Mpy]

In terms of organisms, if you are mimicking the salinity of a lagoon ~25ppt, you could have tunicates(sea squirts) which are filter feeders and pretty awesome. Porcelain crabs are awesome and present in the lagoon, and while not native, they do thrive. In terms of corals & anemones and such, I haven't personally seen any, but I don't doubt they are in the IRL as it is very diverse.