Small Wierd Spots on Puffer
- Thread starter Adam S
- Start date
Ok i was seeing if it would work because i remember it working for my freshwater tank. Ill just keep feeding him and if he stops eating ill do cupramine treatments. Just as i was writing this i looked over at the tank and he was puffing up. I was suprised how big he puffed...after he was twitching then went back in the rocks and now hes back out and swimming again.
Stuart60611
New member
Adam, it is not that simple. You just cannot easily treat with cupramine should you decide to do so. You need to read up quite a bit about it because there is a lot involved. You need to decide if you wish to use this treatment, hyposalinity, or others I described. You need to decide where you want to treat. Use the search function here and start reading up because there is a lot of information to learn before you act. If you are set on cupramine and only treating the display tank, then you need to very carefully read the below thread and all threads referenced therein because this is a very difficult, complicated, and risky process with potentially permanent and dire consequences where you could both destroy your rock and sand and kill all of your fish. You going to need all kinds of things like a copper test kit, maybe a quarantine tank and filter, maybe live bacteria, lots of water premade and mixed, etc.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1791555&highlight=ich+450
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1791555&highlight=ich+450
Pufferpunk
New member
Yes, hypo is much easier & safer (read the article). If not doe exactly, copper (even cupramine) is very deadly to fish, especially puffers.
Stuart60611
New member
To do hypo, you must have a refractometer, and it must be precisely calibrated. Even slightly off, and hypo will not work. The only way you can do hypo safely with certainty is in a separate tank and leave your display fishless for at least 8 weeks. If you do it in the display, there is going to be the ammonia problem mentioned in the thread on cupramine in the display posted above you are going to have to deal with. Read about the fauna die off and how to deal with it in the cupramine thread because the exact same problem will exist if you hypo your display. To hypo the display, you are going to need some ammonia binder, live bacteria, and lots of mixed water precisely to hypo level ready for many frequent water changes. At the same time, you are going to have to constantly test for ammonia and remove as much organic matter that you can before or as it dies. This is all explained in the thread and particularlly one of the threads referenced therein. Even then, there is a real chance that you may not be able to manage the ammonia and kill all your fish if you hypo the display. You are going to have to be around the tank 24/7 and constantly managing ammonia for about up to 1 week to succeed at hypoing the display.
Stuart60611
New member
Ya, now you are leaning why quarantine is essential because the headache you may have to deal with if a parasite gets in the display can be a real nightmare. If you are going to be starting school, then your only real option is to get a second tank to treat in, remove the fish from the display, put them in this second tank and treat. After treating, you cannot return the fish to the display until the display has been without fish for at least 8 weeks. You really have no other options except perhaps the tank transfer method, but that would require several additional tanks and a lot of work each day after school for about 1 week. The easiest and only other available option is to do nothing other than continue to feed well and keep water quality high knowing that the fish will continue to have crypt and show symptoms and hope they learn to live with it.
Pufferpunk
New member
Or die from it.
There is no way for bacteria to live through hypo. I have found if the system for hypo is large enough & the proper water changes are done, there is no use for filtration, since no bacteria can handle that SG change to 1.009.
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Stuart60611
New member
I have found the exact opposite. I am not sure why you had the problem, but if you search here there are many posts from those of us who were able to do this without a problem. I have found that at most the bacteria filter is temporarilly retarded for just a few days which can be virtually eliminated if you dose live bacteria for a couple days both before and during the first week of hypo. I have done this twice with hypo and also with cupramaine in the display. Both times bacteria filter functioned fine. The problem with hypo in the display is not that the bacteria filter does not function as much as the massive amount of fauna that dies all at once is too much for the filter to handle. During this massive ammonia spike, you have to employ ammonia binders, live bacteria additions, and massive water changes and hope you stay ahead which is why this will not work for Adam while attending school. Once the initial fauna die off calms (about 1 week after hypo is reached), people have no problem with the bacteria filter for the remaining 9 weeks of the treatment. If you think about it, the bacteria have to be able to survive hypo level because otherwise how would you not have to not do nearly a 100% water change everyday in quarantine when doing hypo if this were not true. Bacteria have no problem surviving hypo when hypo is being done in quarantine so why would they have a problem surviving hypo when hypo is done in the display.
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Pufferpunk
New member
But SW bacteria is a totally different animal than FW bacteria which is what you're using at that low SG.
Stuart60611
New member
Is it possible for a new bacteria filter based on freshwater organisms to develop only in 1 week's time after taking full salinity down to hypo level because otherwise the only other explanation I could see is that the same bacteria species used at marine salinity for the filter live and function at hypo level. I have some large fish who I feed quite a bit of food. During hypo in my display, I did no skimming, nor any water changes for 10 weeks. I fed large amounts of food each day and had only ammonia problems for the first week after taking my full salinity down to hypo while all the fauna was dying. Either way, whether a whole new filter based on purely a freshwater species sufficiently develops or the previously existing marine species is the basis, ime the bacteria filter functions fine at hypo level within 1 week after you reduce salinity to hypo from full salinity.
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Stuart60611
New member
You are going to have the same issue with ammonia and even possibly a worse one. How are you going to handle being around the tank to deal with this while at school?
Pufferpunk
New member
You must not use copper in your main tank!
Stuart, maybe these will help:
http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/library/water-filtration/aquariummicrobespart1/
http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/library/water-filtration/aquariummicrobespart2/
Stuart, maybe these will help:
http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/library/water-filtration/aquariummicrobespart1/
http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/library/water-filtration/aquariummicrobespart2/
Stuart60611
New member
Thanks, and that is some good information which, in part, I was unfamiliar with based on my lack of freshwater knowledge. However, the fact that there are different species for the nitrification and denitrification process for saltwater and freshwater can be reconciled with what we are both discussing. Perhaps, the marine species can survive as low as (or even lower) than hypo level but not as low as freshwater level. This would mean that although one reduces salinity below full ocean level the marine bacteria continue to live and function, and freshwater species do not become dominant until salinity gets closer to freshwater. All I can for sure tell you is that the bacteria filter worked well enough and was mature enough to handle my massive bioload and feeding within 1 week (at most and usually more like 3-5 days) after taking my salinity down to hypo.
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When is the most likely time that the ammonia problem will happen? Im trying to get a start with the cupramine tomorrow so i have alot of time at home (about 6 days before school starts again) where i can check on the params constantly. Getting another tank for quarentine isnt an option for me.
Stuart60611
New member
It will start right when you start to add it. But you have to add it very slowly so you will not even reach full .5 stength for about 5 days after you start. The ammonia spike will be for the whole 5 days of ramping up to .5 and up to 1 week beyond. You cannot start tomorrow because you have a lot of preparations you need to have in place before. You need cupramine, copper test kit, live bacteria, ammonia test kit, and lots of water made up. Maybe your best choice is not to treat.
Yup it seems like it is in my best interest to not treat. Aything i can do to help my puffer as far as food wise? I know i need to keep the water condition up and im soaking his food in garlic now. Should i add carbon and turn my skimmer back on since the prazi isnt really doing anything?
Stuart60611
New member
Well, first make sure what you have here is ich. Do some searching on the web and see if you get some pictures of fish (best of a dogface) with ich and see if it looks like what you are seeing with the puffer. If so, then yes, do a big water change, run some carbon, and start skimming. All you can do for the fish if you do not treat is soak their food in garlic and vitamins, feed good amounts, keep water quality high, and keep conditions (temperature, salinity, etc.) as constant and unchanged as possible.
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