relax everyone. I have been hearing nothing but negative crap about how much solaris stinks and i'm tired of it. just got a little ****ed off ok so just relax. I know nothing about 20$ membership so I will sign up as this site for all it;s bull also has great info I can't live without. I love RC and my 20 is on the way but you must admit there is a lot of crap slinging around here. I got mad and I'm sorry. I hope you can forgive and forget?
Solaris Led lighting systems
- Thread starter jmccalip
- Start date
- Status
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Re: Wow, I go away for a day and get torn to shreds.
Re: Wow, I go away for a day and get torn to shreds.
That said, I simply don't agree with the numbers and the assumptions that are snowballing out of them. I would much rather a real world talk about the costs to run them than see the sales pitch over and over. We woudl all benefit from a conversation with logical input and clearly defined points.
That is my goal and as of yet I am the only person talking real world numbers and what they mean.
I would rather keep this a civil conversation so that others may learn. It is not a personal attack on you. My motives are very straightforward, they are to get the facts out about these new lights, good or bad. For the most part they seem to be good, however there is some misconceptions about the power consumption and heat generated. Just be reading this thread, the misconceptions are starting to precede themselves and that is not a good thing.
Bean
Re: Wow, I go away for a day and get torn to shreds.
Yes I did the research and have a firm grasp of electricity and how it is consumed and billed. I did not say you were lying. I said that there is no way that the posted $113 in electrical savings can be attributed to turning off 680watts of Metal Halide lighting, let alone turning it off and turning on 450W of LED lighting. I also said you may be seeing that much savings on your electric bill, but it is not just from switching out lights.
No I said that reading your posts here and other places regarding this product could easily be seen as shill type behavior. I was trying to make a point in the way all of the posts are framed. I also clearly stated that I did not think that was the fact (In other words every post reads like a word for word advertisement with no hard facts and lots of glitzy punch lines). I stated I thought you were honestly a happy customer saying good things about a product you beleive in. If it came out differently, then I apoligize. As I stated this is not meant to be a personal attack. You have posted SEVERAL times and places with this info. I am just responding to some of the numbers contained in the info.
But what you pay has a direct affect on what you save. "they" pay $.09, so even at double that you pay $.18. Electric rates are very similar in nearby areas. We can bump the rate up substantially and still do the math if you like. Even then the saving could not add up to the $113 you posted.
You seem to be missing the point, or at least not directly responding to it. Going from 800W of MH to 450W of LED CAN NOT SAVE YOU $113 even at $.30 a kWh and 30% efficiency in removing the heat produced.
I have read your posts here and other forums that clearly state a saving of $86 initially and then $113 during the later months. You used these numbers to calculate the annual savings gained by running the PFO. These are the numbers that I am directly speaking about and used as a basis for ALL of my statements. Notice I never said that the PFO vs MH was not a money saver. I just questioned the amount of total savings (including chilling costs). If I missed where you said that these are NOT the amounts saved by switching over, then I am sorry and would like to work with the real world numbers as best as you can determine them. Again, this is a learning experience for everbodies benefit.
With all due respect, you have brushed me and my math off by saying it is a rant and I have personal issues. I am not trying to discredit you and I do not want to fight with you.
That said, I simply don't agree with the numbers and the assumptions that are snowballing out of them. I would much rather a real world talk about the costs to run them than see the sales pitch over and over. We woudl all benefit from a conversation with logical input and clearly defined points.
That is my goal and as of yet I am the only person talking real world numbers and what they mean.
Yes, and I am saying that the energy savings of $86-$113 can not be attributed to turning off an 800W MH unit and replacing it with a 450W (or 250W, or 10W) PFO unit. The math does not add up, even if we stepped way out on a limb and said it takes you 5W to remove every 1W of heat introduced to the tank. If the $86-$113 savings I am using is not what you observed, then please let me know.
Please show me where the BS is. I used very basic math to show how much it costs to run a given "electric device" at a given utility rate. I have done so in a polite manner and in a logical fashion so that it is easy to follow along. You have rebutted by attacking me and my motives but have not shown a single piece of evidence as to why I am wrong. I would much rather take a step or two backwards and start with the basic operating parameters of each unit and build the model from there. I would love your participation.
I would rather keep this a civil conversation so that others may learn. It is not a personal attack on you. My motives are very straightforward, they are to get the facts out about these new lights, good or bad. For the most part they seem to be good, however there is some misconceptions about the power consumption and heat generated. Just be reading this thread, the misconceptions are starting to precede themselves and that is not a good thing.
Bean
Last edited:
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8864468#post8864468 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefWraith
Well said Amphibious...
Bean, my post wasn't meant to put you on the defensive. You simply left out delivery and other add on charges that could change the scenario significantly (even based upon your given 'skewed' numbers). Just as you said you 'couldn't stand' the reports of what you considered to be erroneous numbers regarding energy savings, I'm opposed to people immediately saying things are 'impossible' and then backing it up with an incomplete story. No need to argue or bicker... I only wanted to add something you omitted. I did in fact check out your posted website... thus my stated fact that kWh only represents part of the picture (generation charge). In reality it would be very difficult to determine true energy savings given the variability in tank setups (pumps and the like), ambient temp, room environments and so forth. I guess I'm a bit surprised to see someone so adamant in disproving something. It certainly leaves me wondering why. Regardless, to each their own ... Happy New Year and happy reefing. :rollface:
I have addressed this already. The "variables" you have thrown into the equation were considered AND IGNORED becuase they make the heat load LESS, not more. I used WORST CASE scenarios. You seem to want to paint calculation of energy consumption and billing as a very complicated matter. It is not.
Again, I used WORST CASE (100% heat load and less than 50% efficiency removing it). We can go as far as 30% (or lower) efficiency in removing the 100% heat load and still not come up with $113 in savings. It is a very simple point and very easy to illustrate
If Amph would like to post the kWh rates and (gen and distro) charges, we can make the numbers even more meaningful.
I do not disagree that he saves electricity by switching. I just disagree with the amount and have and can show why.
And yes... Happy New Year to you and everybody else here!
Last edited:
mako56
Premium Member
Boy its getting warm in here again :lol: but that's ok as long as we keep it civil. I for one would like to know the facts as I am not an electrician and haven't ever sat down to figure any of this out I just plug stuff in and pay the bill. Now I might have to study more and see what's going on. Thanks guys.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
You do not need to be an electrician. Understanding a few basic concepts is all you need. You say you can read your electric bill.
Whip one out and tell us exactly how much you pay per kWh (in other words any charge on your bill that is multiplied by the meter reading).
Then let me know what lighting you have now, and what PFO model you intent to replace it with. I can give you a pretty good idea of how much you can save in theory and in reality. The math is straightforward.
Bean
Whip one out and tell us exactly how much you pay per kWh (in other words any charge on your bill that is multiplied by the meter reading).
Then let me know what lighting you have now, and what PFO model you intent to replace it with. I can give you a pretty good idea of how much you can save in theory and in reality. The math is straightforward.
Bean
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
You guys sure you pay .36 a kWh That sounds unreasonably high
Here is a map with avg costs throughout the country.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html and a more complete table with the compiled data (available almost every quarter from what I understand)
For example, the table shows I pay around .10 a kWh here in PA (the actual on my bull is about 9.8 cents.
NW and NJ are among the nations highest with .15 to .18 per kWh.
As I mentioned, looking up Amphibious' town revealed .09 a kWh but he says it is more... FLA comes in on avg around 11.36 cents.
Anyway... check the numbers to make sure.
If you DO pay .36 a kWh and you run the lights 10 hours a day...
that is 800W X 10 hours = 8kWh a day
That is $2.88 a day for the lights, or $86.40 a month for the lights.
Adding your pumps and other 24/7 equipment in (lets say 500W that runs 24/7) you will consume another 12 kWh a day. That would cost another $129 to run the aquarium. So $220 or so a month for your tanks electrical costs would be a good guess if the rate is correct.
What PFO setup do you plan on replacing the (2) 400 MHs with?
Here is a map with avg costs throughout the country.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html and a more complete table with the compiled data (available almost every quarter from what I understand)
For example, the table shows I pay around .10 a kWh here in PA (the actual on my bull is about 9.8 cents.
NW and NJ are among the nations highest with .15 to .18 per kWh.
As I mentioned, looking up Amphibious' town revealed .09 a kWh but he says it is more... FLA comes in on avg around 11.36 cents.
Anyway... check the numbers to make sure.
If you DO pay .36 a kWh and you run the lights 10 hours a day...
that is 800W X 10 hours = 8kWh a day
That is $2.88 a day for the lights, or $86.40 a month for the lights.
Adding your pumps and other 24/7 equipment in (lets say 500W that runs 24/7) you will consume another 12 kWh a day. That would cost another $129 to run the aquarium. So $220 or so a month for your tanks electrical costs would be a good guess if the rate is correct.
What PFO setup do you plan on replacing the (2) 400 MHs with?
xlayedoutx
Member
What year was that map made. In CA, yeah we start out at .12 per KWH but can go up to $0.34 per KWH depending on what tier you're in useage wise. I myself am always in the 4th tier paying over $0.30 per KWH.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
That map I linked to is "after" all charges (other than fixed costs on the bill. Do you come to 36 cents by dividing total dollar amount by the kWh used that month? Are you on a tier rate?
Not being a PITA but I have never heard of electricity that costs that much other in Cali The avg household uses 1000 kwH a month, that would put the avg bill in your neighborhood at $375 or so.... I use 2000 kWh a mont and that would put me at close to $750 My bill is $200 give or take some.
How much us your avg bill (if you do not mind sharing).
Bean
Not being a PITA but I have never heard of electricity that costs that much other in Cali
The avg household uses 1000 kwH a month, that would put the avg bill in your neighborhood at $375 or so.... I use 2000 kWh a mont and that would put me at close to $750 My bill is $200 give or take some.How much us your avg bill (if you do not mind sharing).
Bean
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
That map is current as of 2006. It is updated several times a year
Whats up
I'm new to this forum and have only posted once. I haven't paided the membership fee yet but I guess I didn't realize there was one until I read some of the heated disscusion in this thread. I don't intend on being a free loader. Anyway, just to get my 2 cents in.
I built an LED array about 4 years ago and I had great results. I did not persue it because of the cost. I researched into the Solaris and I was impressed. I'm not sure that the technology is quite there to compete with metal halides but it is darn close. If I recall 4 years ago Luxeon stars were only running at about 30 lums a led, now there running about 120 lums.
Also, it looks like they are about half the price per LED compared to what they were. That is also promising. I would bet that in 2, maybe 3 years, LED technology will be to the point were LED's are without a doubt functional in the reef aquarium but still probably expensive.
What does this mean for all of you who bought the solaris? Well even if you do have to replace the LED arrays in 5 years, because of time and increase in technology I would think the cost of the LED arraysfor the solaris would go down. Its kind of like buying a blueray DVD player now or waiting a year or so. The price will drop.
Not that this info was useful, but I hope I gave everyone a little different perspective on the subject. If not at least I got my 2 cents in.
I'm new to this forum and have only posted once. I haven't paided the membership fee yet but I guess I didn't realize there was one until I read some of the heated disscusion in this thread. I don't intend on being a free loader. Anyway, just to get my 2 cents in.
I built an LED array about 4 years ago and I had great results. I did not persue it because of the cost. I researched into the Solaris and I was impressed. I'm not sure that the technology is quite there to compete with metal halides but it is darn close. If I recall 4 years ago Luxeon stars were only running at about 30 lums a led, now there running about 120 lums.
Also, it looks like they are about half the price per LED compared to what they were. That is also promising. I would bet that in 2, maybe 3 years, LED technology will be to the point were LED's are without a doubt functional in the reef aquarium but still probably expensive.
What does this mean for all of you who bought the solaris? Well even if you do have to replace the LED arrays in 5 years, because of time and increase in technology I would think the cost of the LED arraysfor the solaris would go down. Its kind of like buying a blueray DVD player now or waiting a year or so. The price will drop.
Not that this info was useful, but I hope I gave everyone a little different perspective on the subject. If not at least I got my 2 cents in.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Just so everybody is on the same page here...
Cali bills in tiers:
You get a baseline kWh usage that you can not go over
It is around 300kWh average per month.
Approximate billing in Cali
To make a long story short, if you use 900 kWh
Tier 1 300 kWh @ .118
Tier 2 90 kWh @ .137
Tier 3 210 kWh @ .228
Tier 4 300 Kwh @ .352
Runs you about $200 and comes out to a total of .22 a kWh
If you go over 1000kWh a month, you then start getting billed in Tier 5, and that is when stuff gets expensive but the price per kWh will still average somewhere in the .25 area.
Why am I bringing this up? Because with all of this talk of energy savings, we need to understand how much is really being saved.
SO when somebody says electricity in Cali costs $.38 or $.45 a kWh, they either do not understand the billing or are not showing the full picture. For anybody who uses a moderate amount of energy , the rate are still expensive but come on around $.22 a kWh. This Year (2007) the rates will roll back to 2001 levels and avg about $.15 a kWh for folks who use 2000 kWh or so.
A few folks have commented on "how complicated" energy billing is etc. It is not complicated if you have a basic understanding of how you are billed and how much energy a device uses when it is plugged into the wall.
There is no magic. If two competing lighting systems both consume 300W, then they both cost the same to operate. For those who want to argue Power Factor, we can take that into consideration as well. But suffice to say that it does not make enough of a difference on this size load to worry about.
Here is a calculator that will help you determine your California electric bill (based on old rates).
It should be noted that legislation has been passed in Cali to roll back the [now crimal] rates to these levels!!!!!! Please see this reference. http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/061220/20061220005674.html?.v=1
http://www.csc.calpoly.edu/~jdalbey/Public/ElectricBillCalc.html#Rates
Bean
Last edited:
Should I feel lucky in CA? In Sacramento most of us have SMUD (a publicly owned utility that is big on hydraulic and renewable sources), I pay 0.08 for the first 600kwh, 0.14 for the next 300KWH then 0.15 for anything above. There maybe more tiers after that but I never went above that so don't know.
Why are we so afraid of nuclear? Most rest of the industrial world heavily rely on nuclear and it is clean, cheap and safe, and best of all, not influenced by the Middle East conflict, will not contribute to the Globle Warming. I hate it when I talk like GWB
Why are we so afraid of nuclear? Most rest of the industrial world heavily rely on nuclear and it is clean, cheap and safe, and best of all, not influenced by the Middle East conflict, will not contribute to the Globle Warming. I hate it when I talk like GWB
- Status
Similar threads
