Solaris Led lighting systems

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10121712#post10121712 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Dez Nutz
In regards to timing, maybe not, but heat dispursion? Even if LED use the same watt and generate the same heat as metal halides, the difference in heat dispursion is definitley a benefit in LED's. Plus all the benefits of accomplishing all the timing built into LED's which (as pointed out) cost less than achieving similar results with halides, are LED positives.

The heat dispersion is a product of the fixture. If you run nice halide setups, you dont have heat problems, because theyre designed properly. If you run a pair of 250SEs in spider reflectors with no fans 4" over your water, you have heat issues.

Again, how is it a positive that they cost 5% or so less than the absolute top of the line MH fixture, are less efficient, significantly less powerful, and dont have any additional functionality?

 

[bstreep]

OK, get me some duct tape - MY HEAD IS GOING TO EXPLODE!!!

I've spent the last few hours doing some research (thanks Rich!). So, here are my conclusions/delusions...

I don't care what others say, I NEED A CHILLER. I live in South Texas. My tank is a 215g in-the-wall tank, and I have to run the A/C for about 8 or 9 months of the year, to keep the tank cool. Even when it's 72 degrees outside, the humidity is such that evaporative cooling won't cut it. At 76 degrees, with the A/C running, 3 fans (2 large computer fans & a cheap fan over the sump) AND a bathroom exhaust fan above the tank, I still creep up to 83 degrees. And to get this, I have to open the doors on the tank - not REAL pretty! I replace about 5-8 gallons a day due to evaporation.

I have 3x400w Coralvue pendants, with 14K Hamilton DEs in them. Rich, are you saying that these might NOT be the most efficient pendants? If so, what might you recommend? If I lose 20% due to efficiency of the pendant, that's about 250w of heat I could dump!

I've done a BUNCH of research on LEDs, today, and over the past few months. Here's the problem, as I see it. LEDs are, at best, equal to MH for efficiency. At best. The BEST MH's are about 40% efficient - the other 60% is just heat. The worst, about 25%. That's just pure, brutal output. Mine are likely around 30%.

I've read Sanjay's articles on pendants again, and frankly, while I could maybe decide which one(s) work best, it doesn't tell me what their efficiency is. So, let's ASSUME that the MHs are only 75% efficient at directing their output into the tank, AS COMPARED TO LEDS (which also will lose output through the sides). That's probably low for the good ones. Backing into this, that means that to replace my 1200w of MH, I'd need 900w of LEDs. AHHHHHH! This is killing me!

What it comes down to is this: If LEDs aren't any more efficient than MH at producing PAR - and this appears to be the case - then simple math says I still have a heat issue. Even if they are 50% better, I still have a heat issue! The ONLY way this whole LED thing works is IF they can put more par per watt - a LOT more PAR - like DOUBLE THE PAR PER WATT, I can't make it work...

By the way, I still haven't heard from PFO on my proposed test. I guess that should tell me something! See my next post will be my testing proposal.

 

[bstreep]

Here’s my proposal to PFO and Aquaillumination:

I’ll PAY for a 24” fixture from each of you. If your fixture wins, I’ll then buy a 72” fixture from you. You agree to “keep me whole”. If your fixture doesn’t win, you agree to buy it back. As I understand it, Aquaillumination has accepted my proposal.

Lighting evaluation:

Lighting:

1 â€"œ PFO Solaris 24” LED “H” 400 model
1 â€"œ Aquaillumination 24” model
1 â€"œ Coralvue DE Pendant, Coralvue 400w Ballast (latest design w/fans), Hamilton 14K DE bulb & Actinic VHO supplementation. VHOs will be shielded from the other 2 fixtures.

Anticipated duration: 2 months

Setup:

Tank: 215g Oceanic Brick (no bracing). Tank has been established for 15 months. Sump is 60g, 30g refugium with 3” sandbed, macroalage. Skimmer is a becket style, locally built. Current circulation is approximately 10,000gph via closed loops, returns, and Seio 2600s. Overflow is via a 22” Calfo at one end of the tank. Reef Crystals salt, normal maintenance includes 38g water change weekly using RO/DI water. Supplementation is via a calcium reactor and all topoff water is via a kalk stirrer (approx 5g per day). Weekly supplements include Mg, Iodine, Strontium and Coral Stimulator. Current conditions: Temp 79-83 (no chiller, thus the reason for looking at LED), specific gravity 1.024, Nitrates: 5-15, PO zero, Ca 480, Mg 1340. Bio load (fish) is fairly high. Coral growth is outstanding, with most frags doubling in 4-6 weeks.

Test setup:

I propose to create 24 frags of a tricolor LE that is supposed to originally be a Bali Tri-Color from Steve Tyree. I hope I have enough of it to make 24. These will be mounted and grown out for a minimum of 1 month prior to the test. Mounting plugs will be weighed prior to mounting. Frags will be weighed at mounting. Frags will be weighed after mounting to then account for the weight of the mounting glue.

At test time, frags will again be weighed for a beginning weight, and to insure that the frags are growing out. Frags will be evenly selected for the test by ordering the frags by growth %, and then assigning them to each test group using this methodology: 1,2,3,3,2,1 etc. Once in a test group, they will then be randomly assigned a position in the test.

For the test, I propose the following: frags will be placed at 4 different vertical levels, one 3” from the center line and one 9” from the centerline (tank is 24” wide, therefore 12” from the center to the edge). Proposed vertical levels are 6”, 12”, 18” and 24” from the surface (tank is 29” deep. Frags will be mounted in eggcrate, with black acrylic “shields” on the sides to prevent the other lighting from influencing the test.

Weekly, the frags will be weighed and photographed.

The biggest downside I can see to this is if a frag is loss. I’d love to have more, but I don’t think I have enough. I might see if I can snag another high-dollar coral to use, but… I really think this tricolor is a great test example. We’ll be able to see how the lights affect coloration too. The “winner” will be chose from a total score consisting of 50% growth (% of the total weight) and 50% “blind” subjective voting from this forum (unlabeled photos will be shown).

I'm open to other suggestions.

 

[Philwd]

I think you've got it. The LEDs will produce heat but the fixtures are very good at dissipating it into the room instead of down into the water. So it's your AC doing the cooling. I'm still trying to get my arms around if in a big home this extra heat into the room actually matters. My rooms next to the tank are a bit cooler so in my case I don't think that matters. So a plus for the LED.

Pretty soon it appears we will have LEDs near the 2X efficiency of halides you mentioned. Possibly later this year. Since LEDs can't be driven as hard as halides you need that much more efficiency to get both the light output and energy savings. The Seoul Semi white LEDs used now are actually higher efficiency than some 10K halides. So I'm extremely interested in seeing how the Aquaillumination looks.

BTW evaporating that much water should be leading to significant evap cooling. My 150 evaps 3G/day and I stay below 80 here in Az. I'd look into other reasons why your tank is heating up.

My experience with the CV pendants is they were just ok. No where near top notch.

On the Bali Tri color. In my tank it is at best a medium grower. I'd say pick a faster growing coral so the weight measurements are more statistically significant. Slimer or pthalma or digi. Something like that.

 

[bstreep]

Phil,

We aren't ANYWHERE near as dry as you folks are! There are NO evaporative coolers on our roofs...

Who else makes a good 400W DE pendant?

I was thinking of the tricolor as it's a bit tougher to grow AND coloration is a BIG deal. Slimers will grow in just about anything. Right now, I've got tricolors growing well, too.

 

[Philwd]

Oh I know it's a dry heat. Still evaping that much should be doing some cooling. You are evaporating double what I do but on a tank that's 60% bigger.

You are going to have a good sample size with 24 frags. The problem you will get here is if the normal variation in growth among the worst to the best frag over the time of the evaluation on the control pendant is on the same order of magnitude as the median weight gain of the LED fixtures then it will be difficult to say statistically whether the growth between frags can be attributed to the fixture. I was thinking the faster the grower the more difference you would see. You need to get enough growth to be able to say you grew faster than the background variation.

 

[bstreep]

Yeah, and I have 3x400w plus 400w VHO. However, that being said, my ballasts are outside, protected, but outside.

The plan is to "weigh" the growth differences. Each frag is given a score of 1, 2 or 3, based upon it's competing spot on the other fixtures. That way random bad growth of a single frag won't kill the total score of the fixture.

Of course, this all assumes total buy in...

 

[spleen93]

Bill - can't you use a Lumenarc III Mini Stealth DE? I think all DE reflectors/pendants are the same regardless of wattage.

Spleen

 

[jnb]

any heat dissipating will come thru the fan ports and on my solaris, the heat being blown out less measurably less than my MH fixture FWIW

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10125069#post10125069 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Philwd
I think you've got it. The LEDs will produce heat but the fixtures are very good at dissipating it into the room instead of down into the water. So...

 

[BeanAnimal]

JNB

We are back to a very simple concept here.

A "system" that consumes 900W will produce 900W worth of heat in the room. It does not matter what the system is. LED, MH, Space Heater, Blender.

As for how "hot" the air feels. Slow the fans down and the air will feel hotter. Speed them up and the air will feel cooler.

 

[jnb]

no matter what you say - the fans being more powerful on my MH fixture blow hotter air than the weaker fans on my solaris and there is no other heat being vented off either fixture - simple as that.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10126367#post10126367 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
JNB

We are back to a very simple concept here.

A "system" that consumes 900W will produce 900W worth of heat in the room. It does not matter what the system is. LED, MH, Space Heater, Blender.

As for how "hot" the air feels. Slow the fans down and the air will feel hotter. Speed them up and the air will feel cooler.

 

[BeanAnimal]

No it is certainly not "simple as that".

What exactly does exhaust temperature of the fixture mean?

How many watts does the LED fixture draw?
How many wats does the MH fixture draw?

Watts are watts. If both fixtures consume 250W then both fixture produce 250W worth of heat. Period.

MH being MORE EFFICIENT than LED means that the same 250W worth of MH will ALSO put out more LIGHT than the 250W worth of LED.

Some very simple physics keep getting overlooked here.

We can certainly talk about which fixture imparts more heat into the tank water via radiation... but that is beside the point.

 

[bstreep]

Bean, you are exactly right about the heat. USING 250W, whether it's in a 250w heater, or a 100% effective lighting system, will STLL produce the same heat - for the most part. SOME of that light energy will be converted to biomass by your photosynthetic critters, but let's be real - it's a tiny, tiny fraction - probably about the same fraction that gets reflected out of your tank and out of your house thru the windows!

So, unless an LED system produces more directed, useable PAR per watt... And, so far, that hasn't been proven.

Like I said above, I'm will to test these in the real world. Forget about instrumentation - it's kind of like testing a car without driving it. You can get a lot of facts, but until you get it on the road, it can't tell the whole story.

 

[jaydubh11]

G vs. H4

G vs. H4

I am planning on putting a Solaris on a 90g (24" deep) with LPS/Softies. Will I be happy with the 300w 20K model or should I go with the 400w 20K? I do not plan on adding any SPS to this tank in the future.

 

[Dez Nutz]

I was not arguring that 250 watt is not 250 watt and heat is not the same. The argument in favor of LED here is what that fixture does with that heat.

RichConley almost gave credit to LED for proper heat dispursion, but put it on the "fixture". The Solaris fixture is setup so that heat goes out the top of the fixture. As I see it this is a benefit not only of the fixture, but also the LED, as LED are made with the heat generation totally on one side, and in this fixture that side is put at the top of the fixture, with the bulb remaining close and on the side of the water. So in favor of LED and Solaris system heat is not propelled downward into the water, and thus has better heat dispursion than Metal Halides.

Yes, you can limit the heat output put into water on Halides, by properly venting, and putting at a better distance from surface, ect.. thing is there is still heat being radiated downward from all metal halides, and is something that must be dealt with. Again Halides are a more mature technology and there has been many way to deal and limit this, but again the technology of LED's and this fixture is one benefit of removing this as something that must be dealt with. I cannot beleive you cannot give that props to them on this at the very least.

Again I do not own LED's I still have my metal halides, and I probably am not getting LEDs anytime soon, but I think there are positives and negatives to both technologies, and if you cannot see that or reconigize that, than it puts a different view on all your arguments as coming from someone who is more a "fanboy" of one technology over the other.

 

[Gobie74]

Watts are watts. If both fixtures consume 250W then both fixture produce 250W worth of heat. Period.

Is that true? If they both draw 250W worth of electricity, each will convert some of that 250W into heat and some into light. The one that can convert more into light is more electrically efficient, or at least that is my understanding of it.

That doesn't necessarily mean that one is 'better', its' only one type of efficiency.

If each were drawing 250W and converting all of that 250W into heat, wouldn't they be nothing more than giant resistors?

Not an electrical engineer so I may be a bit off here.

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10127296#post10127296 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gobie74
Is that true? If they both draw 250W worth of electricity, each will convert some of that 250W into heat and some into light. The one that can convert more into light is more electrically efficient, or at least that is my understanding of it.

Light gets converted to heat.

 

[PFO Lighting]

lumens/watt

lumens/watt

Since the discussion seems to be back to lumens/watt let me repost the following.

Bulb Watt Color Lumens Watts lumens/watt
250W 4K Sylvania 20,000 295 67.79661
250W 10K ushio 10500 295 35.59322
250W 20K ushio 5000 295 16.94915

400W 4K Sylvania 36000 465 77.41935
400W 10K Ushio 18500 465 39.78495
400U- 20K Ushio 8000 465 17.2043

If you read all of our marketing material we always compare the G series to be similar to a 250W 20K and the H4 series to be similar to 400W 20K.

Now why do we use the XM20k lamps at all the shows we do? Because Sanjays lamp reports say that the XM 20K lamp produce the highest PAR using standard M58 and M59 ballasts on his list. These ballasts are the most common in the overall aquarium industry.

Now for the PAR hungry people the highest performing item on Sanjays table: 250W Iwasaki 6.5K lamps
400W Happy Reefing Double Ended 10K bulbs. The PFO Krystal star lamp is the exact same lamp as the Happy Reefing lamp. Sanjay has not updated his website with the PFO name yet, because everytime I ask him to he says he will and then forgets.

If you are not using those two lamps you are in the world of color, how corals respond, and what you like. This is where everyone does trade offs in relation to what the tank should look like to your own eyes. Everyone has an opinion and since they are opinions they are all correct.

We offer metal halide, LED lighting, and fluorescent lighting. Depending on the application all forms of lighting have there place. Metal Halide, LED, T5, PC's, VHO, and normal output fluorescent lighting.

Patrick Ormiston
PFO Lighting Inc.

 

[jnb]

I take it all back, I am not qualified - obviously the Solaris is making heat elsewhere rather than thru the fan ports - or my sense of touch of air and temp is ajar. Without further research I can not give useful info.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10126475#post10126475 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
No it is certainly not "simple as that".

What exactly does exhaust temperature of the fixture mean?

How many watts does the LED fixture draw?
How many wats does the MH fixture draw?

Watts are watts. If both fixtures consume 250W then both fixture produce 250W worth of heat. Period.

MH being MORE EFFICIENT than LED means that the same 250W worth of MH will ALSO put out more LIGHT than the 250W worth of LED.

Some very simple physics keep getting overlooked here.

We can certainly talk about which fixture imparts more heat into the tank water via radiation... but that is beside the point.

 

[RichConley]

Re: lumens/watt

Re: lumens/watt

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10127697#post10127697 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PFO Lighting

If you read all of our marketing material we always compare the G series to be similar to a 250W 20K and the H4 series to be similar to 400W 20K.

Now why do we use the XM20k lamps at all the shows we do? Because Sanjays lamp reports say that the XM 20K lamp produce the highest PAR using standard M58 and M59 ballasts on his list. These ballasts are the most common in the overall aquarium industry.

Similar? C'mon, we've gone over this like 10 times. The 250w XM20k smokes the G series. Its not even close.