Some new fish...
- Thread starter Recty
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DamnPepShrimp
Moved On
Has this all started from the copper treatment? There was no signs of HLLE beforehand?
ccampbell57
Premium Member
To be honest the severe case of HLLE is not just from the copper in this case. What is happening is the fish are in constant flux with the water. Going from regular salinity to hypo, then back up from hypo then to copper.
Their ammune systems are in shock and they are need time to recoupe. I have run my fish through 1 month of copper and never received HLLE. I ensured that the diet they were on was maintained, but I also added Vitachem and selcon to the food just in case.
It seems to me that the water in the tanks is not good. Angelfish are very suseptive to HLLE and water conditions is the biggest culprit.
Grant - continue your copper treatment as scheduled. Do not stop. Make sure that you get vitachem and selcon as well as some additional types of food to feed the fish and the HLLE will heal.
Their ammune systems are in shock and they are need time to recoupe. I have run my fish through 1 month of copper and never received HLLE. I ensured that the diet they were on was maintained, but I also added Vitachem and selcon to the food just in case.
It seems to me that the water in the tanks is not good. Angelfish are very suseptive to HLLE and water conditions is the biggest culprit.
Grant - continue your copper treatment as scheduled. Do not stop. Make sure that you get vitachem and selcon as well as some additional types of food to feed the fish and the HLLE will heal.
ccampbell57
Premium Member
Also, what appears to be HLLE down the horizontal line of the two angels is not. This is the natural look of the blueface and majestic. Their lateral line is very noticeable.
Recty
New member
Well yeah, I've always heard that water quality is what causes HLLE. I've also heard copper indicated as causing it, but I think that might have to do with problems in the biofilter when you initially dose copper. I know for a fact that my water clouded up a little bit, not much, but a little, for the first 2 or 3 days I had copper in the tank. After that, it got crystal clear again but there was small period when something funky was going on with the water.
I tested for ammonia the first 3 days of the copper treatment and didnt see anything, I was worried that is what it was since when I treated copper last time in my QT, I saw the same cloudiness and was definitely able to register small amounts of ammonia.
As far as Vitachem and Selcon, I actually feed those nonstop, all my food is soaked in it when I make up my batches.
One thing I did realize is when the fish stopped eating for a couple days, I quit feeding pellets at all. I just realized last night I hadnt fed pellets for almost 2 weeks, so I just started putting those back in. I know the NLS pellets are good for them, hopefully it helps. I soak them for 10 minutes in some tank water with garlic/selcon/zoe/vitachem so they soften up. Everyone was chowing down on those, even the fish that were turning up their noses at mysis and angel formula, so that was good to see. Well, the butterfly doesnt eat pellets but everyone else was chowing down
The majestic surprised me, I tried putting a 3mm pellet in his tank to see if he would eat it, previously he never would but would only eat the 1mm ones. This time he munched it right down, along with about 15-20 more I dropped in there for him.
The blue face loves pellets, also a good thing. I could pretty much sustain my tank right now on pellets as the tangs really love them and now all 3 angels seem to as well. The only problem I'd have would be the butterfly, he doesnt go for pellets at all, even the small ones.
Anyway, I have high hopes that I'll be able to stop the HLLE in it's tracks and reverse it... we will know in a couple months.
DamnPepShrimp
Moved On
I rescued two tangs (purple and redsea salfin) and both had HORRIBLE HLLE! I used RO/DI water which the previous owner did not and probably had better water quality but my biggest contribution was diet. I fed a mix of every frozen food imaginable along with NLS pellets and TONS of algae sheets all soaked in vitachem and garlic. The salfin is now perfect and the purple is 100x better. I would vary the diet more, add vitamins I'd your not doing so and add algae sheets as well. Since your rocks are very bare bones, giving them algae sheets gives them something to nibble on inbetween feedings. Especially during the copper treatment, I'd feed more often, lots of constant small meals. Keep up on the water changes to keep good water quality since your not running your skimmer. How long are you coppering for? I think the damage won't be too bad if you change the diet up slightly, definitely fixable. My tangs were easily 100x worse, to where the salfin almost died and the purple just looked like an undy had a field day with it, but good husbandry brought them around.
Recty
New member
Yeah, I feed lots of algae sheets... I also soak everything in Vitachem, garlic, selcon and zoe.
I'm pretty confident that this will eventually fix the HLLE, I think when I start removing the copper it will hopefully have an almost immediate effect on it.
I plan on doing a large water change this weekend, 35-40% at least. I'm hoping between that and starting to remove the copper, the fish recover quickly or at least stop getting worse and recover slowly
I'm pretty confident that this will eventually fix the HLLE, I think when I start removing the copper it will hopefully have an almost immediate effect on it.
I plan on doing a large water change this weekend, 35-40% at least. I'm hoping between that and starting to remove the copper, the fish recover quickly or at least stop getting worse and recover slowly
e55MD
Member
Recty,
The New Caledonia Emporer I used to own got severe HLLE when I first treated with Cupramine for ich in a hospital tank. It was much worse than what yours has. I had huge problems with ammonia in that tank because it was not properly cycled.
My current fishes, 5 angles included, just went through a 5 week run of Cupramine with no signs of HLLE developing.
The Emperor healed completely after several months in his new home with good nutrition.
It is going to take some time, but I have no doubt yours will get better with pristine water conditions.
If I can find a photograph, I will post it to show you how bad it was in mine.
The New Caledonia Emporer I used to own got severe HLLE when I first treated with Cupramine for ich in a hospital tank. It was much worse than what yours has. I had huge problems with ammonia in that tank because it was not properly cycled.
My current fishes, 5 angles included, just went through a 5 week run of Cupramine with no signs of HLLE developing.
The Emperor healed completely after several months in his new home with good nutrition.
It is going to take some time, but I have no doubt yours will get better with pristine water conditions.
If I can find a photograph, I will post it to show you how bad it was in mine.
Recty
New member
I'm pretty sure I must have had a slight ammonia spike in my tank with the emperor even though I sure never detected any with my test kits.
I know my other tanks didnt have any ammonia in them, the other two angels in those tanks also developed slight HLLE also so I'm not sure what the deal is.
Someone put forth the theory that the hypo I was using then brought up to 1.025 salinity plus the cupramine caused the HLLE, but it doesnt explain why my other angels got it as well.
I think the cupramine has something to do with it, three separate tanks all "giving" the angels in them HLLE within 10 days of using Cupramine is a little too much coincidence. I know it's water quality related, I'm not directly blaming Cupramine for the HLLE, but a side effect of what it does to the water caused it I think.
I know my other tanks didnt have any ammonia in them, the other two angels in those tanks also developed slight HLLE also so I'm not sure what the deal is.
Someone put forth the theory that the hypo I was using then brought up to 1.025 salinity plus the cupramine caused the HLLE, but it doesnt explain why my other angels got it as well.
I think the cupramine has something to do with it, three separate tanks all "giving" the angels in them HLLE within 10 days of using Cupramine is a little too much coincidence. I know it's water quality related, I'm not directly blaming Cupramine for the HLLE, but a side effect of what it does to the water caused it I think.
DamnPepShrimp
Moved On
Copper does stress fish out, so it does have something to do with it. When I coppered my wrasse and eel, the eel wouldn't eat and the wrasse lost some appetite. Water quality definitely plays a huge key in it. Also, weren't they not eating the first few days of treatment? That could be a factor as well.
DamnPepShrimp
Moved On
Yeah, ouch. Looks worse to me though. How much longer on the copper treatment?
Zoom
Premium Member
Soon as you stop the copper dosing i will get some marine Stresscoat to start the healing process.
The good thing is the HLLE covers wide area on the fish but only on the surface of the skin so it may get better easier with the new marine stresscoat you can use it with the skimmer on.
The good thing is the HLLE covers wide area on the fish but only on the surface of the skin so it may get better easier with the new marine stresscoat you can use it with the skimmer on.
Recty
New member
The copper treatment ends tonight. It's only 2 weeks and Seachem says hopefully treat for 3 weeks, but with the HLLE doing what it is, I'm going to be done tonight. No fish has showed a spot of ich for a week and a half now, so hopefully it is eradicated. Even if not, I'll just treat again later if needed, I'm not going to keep the fish in copper any longer.
I think what I might do next time if I started seeing ich again is put my big angel and big tang each into their own separate 29g for 2 weeks and treat with copper and then place each of my smaller fish into another 29g with separations using eggcrate, and just dose all 3 tanks with copper where there is no live rock to kill off and cause any problems with ammonia which is what I'm assuming happened here.
Then I'd probably HEAVILY nuke the big tank, as long as there is no life in there I'd dose it up to .7-.8 copper and just really know I killed off the ich, lethal levels for 3-4 weeks, then slowly reintroduce the fish back into the tank once I've removed the copper and am sure everything is stable.
But hopefully I dont have to go that route, I'm hoping the ich is kicked right now
I think what I might do next time if I started seeing ich again is put my big angel and big tang each into their own separate 29g for 2 weeks and treat with copper and then place each of my smaller fish into another 29g with separations using eggcrate, and just dose all 3 tanks with copper where there is no live rock to kill off and cause any problems with ammonia which is what I'm assuming happened here.
Then I'd probably HEAVILY nuke the big tank, as long as there is no life in there I'd dose it up to .7-.8 copper and just really know I killed off the ich, lethal levels for 3-4 weeks, then slowly reintroduce the fish back into the tank once I've removed the copper and am sure everything is stable.
But hopefully I dont have to go that route, I'm hoping the ich is kicked right now
Recty
New member
Well, first day of copper treatment over with and I havent noticed a difference in fish being hungrier, but really it's only been pulling copper out of the tank for like 12 hours now so that probably isnt enough time to drastically effect it.
The tanks in the back I did a 50% water change on and put carbon back into the filtration. My big display tank I did a 30% water change, then I have introduced a 20" long piece of 4" PVC that is filled with carbon that gets about 700 gph pumped through it, I'm really hoping this pulls the copper out quickly.
The tanks in the back I did a 50% water change on and put carbon back into the filtration. My big display tank I did a 30% water change, then I have introduced a 20" long piece of 4" PVC that is filled with carbon that gets about 700 gph pumped through it, I'm really hoping this pulls the copper out quickly.
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