Belgian Anthias
New member
Carbon dosing has been successfully used in aquaculture for some decades now, biofloc technology has been subject of a lot of research and the process is well understood. Such a monoculture is harvested if growth stops and a new culture is started up, something we do not intend keeping a reef aquarium.
Carbon dosing in a reef aquarium has a lot of caveats and side effects that are not well understood or ignored. ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=en:makazi:het_water:filtratie:vodka
r strategists bacteria may grow very fast once out of lag phase and come in log phase, as growth is logarithmic. They will grow at least 5x faster as competitors. Determent for the growth rate is the nitrogen source used. Fast growth needs ammonia-nitrogen. Bacteria prefer ammonia to grow, not nitrate-nitrogen. They will outcompete other organisms for nutrients. A lot of protein is produced but logarithmic growth is always followed by logarithmic decay. ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=nl:makazi:bio-chemie:bacteriën
Normally organic carbon for growth is retrieved from organic matter which is remineralized, producing new building materials for new growth and the carbon is released as CO2 to close the carbon cycle and to be used by autotrophs to produce organic matter with the by remineralization provided building materials. Nature limits organic carbon availability for a reason!
By adding free supplemental organic carbon the bacteria do not need to use decaying organic matter to retrieve their carbon demands and for fast growth they use up what is available in the water column. Slower growing species as autotrophs will not be able to compete. The previously installed autotrophic carrying capacity may be lost and replaced by growth which means a certain growth rate must be maintained to support the bio-load.
+- 40 x more bio-mass must be produced to reduce the same amount of ammonium. Carbon dosing also does deplete alkalinity as primary ammonium is used as a nitrogen source! ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=nl:makazi:het_water:ammonium_reductie
What if for some reason growth stops suddenly due to insufficient supply of one or more essential nutrients or dosing is stopped abruptly?
A skimmer removes nutrients constantly but very selective, only +- 30% of organic waste, DOC and TOC, sometimes called "the nasty things" will be removed, the rest stays and must be remineralized. A skimmer is not very effective in removing DOC and TOC! ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=en:makazi:het_water:filtratie:eiwitafschuimer If skimmate increases due to dosing one may get an idea of what is leftover in the tank.
Corrals make use of their own private carbon cycle in the coral holobiont, this way managing their nutrient supply. ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=nl:makazi:theorie:koraal_holoboint
I would not like to be that coral which has to compete with those r-strategists fed with an overdose of free organic carbon!
It has been shown a high C:N ratio will mess up the entire system and the presence of unused carbohydrates may kill corals. Phosphorus starvation has been shown to be the main cause of coral bleaching, dosing organic carbon, based only on the nitrate level may kill corals.
Fast growing bacteria use ammonium -nitrogen, not nitrate, and need phosphorus and other essentials. Most users of carbon dosing use it based on the nitrate level which logically can not be used as a reliable reference for dosing, as may be the daily nitrogen overproduction and or phosphorus availability. The N/P ratio for bacterial growth needed in weight is 10/1 if nitrate and phosphate are used as a reference.
As was shown carbohydrates dosing may kill corals and will for sure mess up the coral holobiont!
Vinegar is often used to improve kalkwasser addition. In that case, carbohydrates are added based on the evaporation rate of the tank, often without taking into account anything else.
In the past 2 decades a lot of elements are added to the side effects of carbon dosing. As long they are not recognized to be safe, unsafe elements eliminated or proven to be not correct one should not add carbohydrate-based supplements to a reef aquarium.
In 2008, Ken S. Feldman and Kelly M. Maers warned about increased organic carbon availability. This is more a decade ago! In an article published in the Advanced Aquarist, they wrote: "œcircumstantial evidence encouraged Rohwer et al. to speculate that the introduction of carbohydrates (= a fuel source) will generate an imbalance in the bacterial component of the holobiont and that this departure from equilibrium leads to coral mortality. The mechanism by which this induced bacterial proliferation causes coral death remains to be elucidated, and this pivotal issue must be addressed before this intriguing hypothesis can gain further traction. Nevertheless, the empirical evidence can be construed to support a robust relationship between elevated DOC levels, correspondingly increased bacterial populations, and coral mortality." They also wrote:"œ Reef bulletin boards all too frequently contain threads that begin "œHelp! My tank is crashing; my corals are dying, but all of my measurable water parameters are within expected ranges. What's wrong?" Could it be possible that elevated levels of DOC, for whatever the reason, are contributing to, or even causing, the coral loss? (FeldmanEnMaers2008>Feature Article: Total Organic Carbon (TOC) and the Reef Aquarium: An Initial Survey, Part I". Page. . https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3.) ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=en:makazi:het_water:filtratie:vodka
The latest decade a lot of research has been done and confirmed the worry's published by Ken S. Feldman and Kelly M. Maers in 2008. ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=nl:makazi:het_water:filtratie:vodka
Who would add something to a thank without knowing it improves or harms the life of the residents ?
In most cases, carbohydrates are used to lower the nitrate level. As far as I know the nitrate level never did harm or influence corals the way to much carbohydrates are able to do. The cure may be worse as the disease. What about controlling algae growth by using carbohydrates without taking into account the essential parameters present?
Assuming enough carbohydrates are dosed in a reef aquarium for directly lowering the nitrate level by heterotrophic bacterial metabolism, I would not like to be one of the corals trying to manage their coral-holobiont. In that case most ammonium will be used up by heterotrophic bacterial growth, this way removing the nitrogen source for slow-growing nitrifying bacteria, removing the previously installed autotrophic carrying capacity. This is very important, if for some reason dosing organic carbon is stopped suddenly or growth is limited by available nutrients, the carrying capacity may not be supported for weeks and ammonia may build up. Therefore it is advised to build off dosing over a period of several weeks.
Carbon dosing in a reef aquarium has a lot of caveats and side effects that are not well understood or ignored. ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=en:makazi:het_water:filtratie:vodka
r strategists bacteria may grow very fast once out of lag phase and come in log phase, as growth is logarithmic. They will grow at least 5x faster as competitors. Determent for the growth rate is the nitrogen source used. Fast growth needs ammonia-nitrogen. Bacteria prefer ammonia to grow, not nitrate-nitrogen. They will outcompete other organisms for nutrients. A lot of protein is produced but logarithmic growth is always followed by logarithmic decay. ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=nl:makazi:bio-chemie:bacteriën
Normally organic carbon for growth is retrieved from organic matter which is remineralized, producing new building materials for new growth and the carbon is released as CO2 to close the carbon cycle and to be used by autotrophs to produce organic matter with the by remineralization provided building materials. Nature limits organic carbon availability for a reason!
By adding free supplemental organic carbon the bacteria do not need to use decaying organic matter to retrieve their carbon demands and for fast growth they use up what is available in the water column. Slower growing species as autotrophs will not be able to compete. The previously installed autotrophic carrying capacity may be lost and replaced by growth which means a certain growth rate must be maintained to support the bio-load.
+- 40 x more bio-mass must be produced to reduce the same amount of ammonium. Carbon dosing also does deplete alkalinity as primary ammonium is used as a nitrogen source! ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=nl:makazi:het_water:ammonium_reductie
What if for some reason growth stops suddenly due to insufficient supply of one or more essential nutrients or dosing is stopped abruptly?
A skimmer removes nutrients constantly but very selective, only +- 30% of organic waste, DOC and TOC, sometimes called "the nasty things" will be removed, the rest stays and must be remineralized. A skimmer is not very effective in removing DOC and TOC! ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=en:makazi:het_water:filtratie:eiwitafschuimer If skimmate increases due to dosing one may get an idea of what is leftover in the tank.
Corrals make use of their own private carbon cycle in the coral holobiont, this way managing their nutrient supply. ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=nl:makazi:theorie:koraal_holoboint
I would not like to be that coral which has to compete with those r-strategists fed with an overdose of free organic carbon!
It has been shown a high C:N ratio will mess up the entire system and the presence of unused carbohydrates may kill corals. Phosphorus starvation has been shown to be the main cause of coral bleaching, dosing organic carbon, based only on the nitrate level may kill corals.
Fast growing bacteria use ammonium -nitrogen, not nitrate, and need phosphorus and other essentials. Most users of carbon dosing use it based on the nitrate level which logically can not be used as a reliable reference for dosing, as may be the daily nitrogen overproduction and or phosphorus availability. The N/P ratio for bacterial growth needed in weight is 10/1 if nitrate and phosphate are used as a reference.
As was shown carbohydrates dosing may kill corals and will for sure mess up the coral holobiont!
Vinegar is often used to improve kalkwasser addition. In that case, carbohydrates are added based on the evaporation rate of the tank, often without taking into account anything else.
In the past 2 decades a lot of elements are added to the side effects of carbon dosing. As long they are not recognized to be safe, unsafe elements eliminated or proven to be not correct one should not add carbohydrate-based supplements to a reef aquarium.
In 2008, Ken S. Feldman and Kelly M. Maers warned about increased organic carbon availability. This is more a decade ago! In an article published in the Advanced Aquarist, they wrote: "œcircumstantial evidence encouraged Rohwer et al. to speculate that the introduction of carbohydrates (= a fuel source) will generate an imbalance in the bacterial component of the holobiont and that this departure from equilibrium leads to coral mortality. The mechanism by which this induced bacterial proliferation causes coral death remains to be elucidated, and this pivotal issue must be addressed before this intriguing hypothesis can gain further traction. Nevertheless, the empirical evidence can be construed to support a robust relationship between elevated DOC levels, correspondingly increased bacterial populations, and coral mortality." They also wrote:"œ Reef bulletin boards all too frequently contain threads that begin "œHelp! My tank is crashing; my corals are dying, but all of my measurable water parameters are within expected ranges. What's wrong?" Could it be possible that elevated levels of DOC, for whatever the reason, are contributing to, or even causing, the coral loss? (FeldmanEnMaers2008>Feature Article: Total Organic Carbon (TOC) and the Reef Aquarium: An Initial Survey, Part I". Page. . https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3.) ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=en:makazi:het_water:filtratie:vodka
The latest decade a lot of research has been done and confirmed the worry's published by Ken S. Feldman and Kelly M. Maers in 2008. ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=nl:makazi:het_water:filtratie:vodka
Who would add something to a thank without knowing it improves or harms the life of the residents ?
In most cases, carbohydrates are used to lower the nitrate level. As far as I know the nitrate level never did harm or influence corals the way to much carbohydrates are able to do. The cure may be worse as the disease. What about controlling algae growth by using carbohydrates without taking into account the essential parameters present?
Assuming enough carbohydrates are dosed in a reef aquarium for directly lowering the nitrate level by heterotrophic bacterial metabolism, I would not like to be one of the corals trying to manage their coral-holobiont. In that case most ammonium will be used up by heterotrophic bacterial growth, this way removing the nitrogen source for slow-growing nitrifying bacteria, removing the previously installed autotrophic carrying capacity. This is very important, if for some reason dosing organic carbon is stopped suddenly or growth is limited by available nutrients, the carrying capacity may not be supported for weeks and ammonia may build up. Therefore it is advised to build off dosing over a period of several weeks.
ratio's" but with the sensing mechanisms of organisms and their preference for nutrients and possible growth rates, the availability of nutrients where the action is.
