Something has got to give!!!!
- Thread starter pewter_jean
- Start date
Sorry to hear about your troubles, Rena. I don't have a lot to add to the advice given to you already.
I know you have struggled with the tank since the getgo and just wanted to assure you that it is not always easy learning the ropes, but if you hang in there, you will master it.
I know you have struggled with the tank since the getgo and just wanted to assure you that it is not always easy learning the ropes, but if you hang in there, you will master it.
You need to stop adding the baking soda. Sounds like your formula for your tank size is incorrect. This sounds like what happened to me awhile ago.
I lost tons of stuff trying the baking soda method. I ended up going to 2 part B-Ionic and letting the tank show me what it needed by coraline growth. The b-ionic will level out your PH and calcium quicker than anything else and restore your ph balance where it should be.
As far as the baking soda, get it out as quick as you can. Leave the witch craft to the pros. It clogged up every filter and blocked up several of my pumps. Whats the point when you cant match the other elements and have to add those anyhow.
I run B-ionic on a 500 gal system and a seperate 100 gal system never had a problem since. I dose with a turkey baster into a power head and its done. Eventually ill buy a dosing pump to do this for me til I get a calc reactor.
Nitrates can be brought down with a nitrate sponge in a few hours. Sounds like your stress is self induced. You need to step back and re-evaluate a bit and formulate a plan of attack instead of reacting so drastically to the swings.
These water changes your doing, there not helping the nitrate issue. This to me sounds like a tank that hasnt finished cycling or you have started the cycling process again for one reason or another. These big water changes are too much to quickly sloooow down.
Last but not least, the cloudy water, thats your trusty baking soda opr a caking agent in the baking soda. It wont settle down. I got it out of my tank with 2 hours a day and a wet dry vac and alot of patience. Took about a week.
turn off all your pumps let it sit and suck it up replace with clean water and rinse out all your filters every time you do this. Imagine being a fish in this milky crap. They cant breath...Also if you dont heed my suggestions of using the baking soda aat least make sure your cooking it and crystalizing it as prescribed to use this method. Some good reads on RC about it. Topics include changing calcium bi-carbonate to calcium carbonate. The pitfalls ect..
Hope my opinion isnt seen as a preaching session and you can use some of this its all My opinion obviously and based on my own expierences but I wish you luck. Hope I helped.
I lost tons of stuff trying the baking soda method. I ended up going to 2 part B-Ionic and letting the tank show me what it needed by coraline growth. The b-ionic will level out your PH and calcium quicker than anything else and restore your ph balance where it should be.
As far as the baking soda, get it out as quick as you can. Leave the witch craft to the pros. It clogged up every filter and blocked up several of my pumps. Whats the point when you cant match the other elements and have to add those anyhow.
I run B-ionic on a 500 gal system and a seperate 100 gal system never had a problem since. I dose with a turkey baster into a power head and its done. Eventually ill buy a dosing pump to do this for me til I get a calc reactor.
Nitrates can be brought down with a nitrate sponge in a few hours. Sounds like your stress is self induced. You need to step back and re-evaluate a bit and formulate a plan of attack instead of reacting so drastically to the swings.
These water changes your doing, there not helping the nitrate issue. This to me sounds like a tank that hasnt finished cycling or you have started the cycling process again for one reason or another. These big water changes are too much to quickly sloooow down.
Last but not least, the cloudy water, thats your trusty baking soda opr a caking agent in the baking soda. It wont settle down. I got it out of my tank with 2 hours a day and a wet dry vac and alot of patience. Took about a week.
turn off all your pumps let it sit and suck it up replace with clean water and rinse out all your filters every time you do this. Imagine being a fish in this milky crap. They cant breath...Also if you dont heed my suggestions of using the baking soda aat least make sure your cooking it and crystalizing it as prescribed to use this method. Some good reads on RC about it. Topics include changing calcium bi-carbonate to calcium carbonate. The pitfalls ect..
Hope my opinion isnt seen as a preaching session and you can use some of this its all My opinion obviously and based on my own expierences but I wish you luck. Hope I helped.
Last edited:
pewter_jean
New member
What I don't understand is why wouldn't my tank have fully cycled. I set it up in July using only rock and sand from my established systems. and rock and sand I had curing in a tank just for that. That tank also had a skimmer, filter, lights, powerheads, I ran this system from Nov to July. Put this all together, cycles lasted about a week or two. Waited another month end of Aug to add the fish from my two established tanks, Ran this for another month or so. Sept/Oct added a few fish. about end of Oct early Nov lost a lot of fish. and been fighting getting nitrates down since. So the Bio load was there. and was doing fine. I read all the time of people moving their fish to a bigger tank, alot quicker than I did. and I was under the impression that bascally it is like doing a large water change. everything from the old tank in the new. and new salt water to top it off. I've heard of people doing it in one day. I gave my tank almost two months to build it self up.
As for the baking soda, I don't think it was to much too fast. 2 teaspoons a day for a 180gal with a 75 gallons sump. When I added the baking soda, I get a shaking container I got just for the tank, I put water in it from the tank add the 2 teaspoons, put the lid on and shake it up the mix up the baking soda real well. then I slowly pour it back into the sump in the return section so it will be deluted by the water in there and pulled back up to the tank. I've tried B-onic when I first set up the tank, My calcuim when thru the roof. I don't know what the reading would have been, but it took two full syringes to change the color. I tested it twice and chad tested it once. All were the same, and the alk was barely 2.47. So I was told back then not to use the B-ionic. and haven't ever since. So that has been 5 months ago.
As for the baking soda, I don't think it was to much too fast. 2 teaspoons a day for a 180gal with a 75 gallons sump. When I added the baking soda, I get a shaking container I got just for the tank, I put water in it from the tank add the 2 teaspoons, put the lid on and shake it up the mix up the baking soda real well. then I slowly pour it back into the sump in the return section so it will be deluted by the water in there and pulled back up to the tank. I've tried B-onic when I first set up the tank, My calcuim when thru the roof. I don't know what the reading would have been, but it took two full syringes to change the color. I tested it twice and chad tested it once. All were the same, and the alk was barely 2.47. So I was told back then not to use the B-ionic. and haven't ever since. So that has been 5 months ago.
stlouisguy
Registered Member
Your temps seem kinda high, how high is the highest spike? Even your new water is in the low - mid 80's. Could it possibly be you are building up good bacteria, only to have a die off from the high temps if it ever hits 85 or so, so you keep getting mini cycles? This could explain your nitrates also.
Only thing I could think of. Could be completely wrong just trying to help
Only thing I could think of. Could be completely wrong just trying to help
frenchie
New member
what size tank do you have, and how many fish due you have in setup, also feeding could be an important factor also. overfeeding, certain flake foods contain to much ash (i think thats what is in flake food that is bad) and some say after using frozen food dethaw and strain fluid from frozen food cause fluid is a problem. I know from experience that you should only a new fish every 2 to 3 weeks one at a time so bioload can make up difference to much livestock added to quick biofiltration falls behind.
pewter_jean
New member
The tank is a 180 gal with a 75gal sump, ASM G-4plus skimmer. XP3 canister for carbon.
Fish in tank are: 1 Sailfin tang, 1 cherub angel, 1 long fin cardinal, 1 diamond goby and 2 small perc clowns. That is it. I feed flake food, but I honestly just give a pinch once a day. The fish usally have it gone before the eggcrate goes back on the tank, like 30 seconds.As for corals, I have my hammers, one wall, and use to be one, now three green branching hammers. anemone with I feed it one piece of silverside or a kril once or twice a week. When I feed him I place the food down untill he grabs it and gets it to his mouth.
Sump has skimmer on one end, a few baffles (4), fuge in the middle with about 50 lbs of live rock, and 20lbs of live sand. macrro and then a few more baffles(4) to the return area where I have a big bag of carbon.
Fish in tank are: 1 Sailfin tang, 1 cherub angel, 1 long fin cardinal, 1 diamond goby and 2 small perc clowns. That is it. I feed flake food, but I honestly just give a pinch once a day. The fish usally have it gone before the eggcrate goes back on the tank, like 30 seconds.As for corals, I have my hammers, one wall, and use to be one, now three green branching hammers. anemone with I feed it one piece of silverside or a kril once or twice a week. When I feed him I place the food down untill he grabs it and gets it to his mouth.
Sump has skimmer on one end, a few baffles (4), fuge in the middle with about 50 lbs of live rock, and 20lbs of live sand. macrro and then a few more baffles(4) to the return area where I have a big bag of carbon.
We are mostly guessing here but as I was editing my response you posted again and explained your Baking soda application process.
You didnt say whether your cooking the baking soda. Also the anti-caking agents in the baking soda are toxic to fish. THese were the reasons I stopped tryint o master this method.
You need to read up on this and get a pure form of Calcium bi-carbonate to start with. Not your moms Arm and Hammer. It wont work.
Then you spread out a liberal amount on a cookie sheet nad bring it up to a certain temp for a period of time stir it and cook it some more then add to Ro/DI and then to tank in a drip. This is assuming you have a pure Calc-bi-carb to start with.
Ive never heard of anyone having problems with b-ionic. Its a good product I buy it in 4 gal. buckets use it daily for last 7 years never an issue.
You know it also sounds like you may or may not have unleashed these nitrates from your old sand bed when you transferd to your new tank.
Its not uncommon. When I transfered my 90 gal to my 300 gal. I ditched the old sand kept a few handfuls to seed the tank and lost the rest. I also rinsed out my rock well. It was full of crap even though I basted it every other day like a religion.
The stuff accumulates. The Macro your using is a nitrate trap as well. Its holding nitrates that never go away till you trim it out. Thats its job to utilize the waste of the tank and store it so you can remove it. If you feed it back to the fish their waste has those same nitrates in it and are again released into the tank. A viscous circle if you will. Only way to remove those nitrates is trim out the over growth and get rid of it.
Dont know any of this for sure guy but sounds like you need to call in a LFS as a back up on you r perameters and maybe under the guise of common interest get someone out to evaluate your setup and maintance routine.
One hour from a pro is the difference of months worth of trial and error.
You didnt say whether your cooking the baking soda. Also the anti-caking agents in the baking soda are toxic to fish. THese were the reasons I stopped tryint o master this method.
You need to read up on this and get a pure form of Calcium bi-carbonate to start with. Not your moms Arm and Hammer. It wont work.
Then you spread out a liberal amount on a cookie sheet nad bring it up to a certain temp for a period of time stir it and cook it some more then add to Ro/DI and then to tank in a drip. This is assuming you have a pure Calc-bi-carb to start with.
Ive never heard of anyone having problems with b-ionic. Its a good product I buy it in 4 gal. buckets use it daily for last 7 years never an issue.
You know it also sounds like you may or may not have unleashed these nitrates from your old sand bed when you transferd to your new tank.
Its not uncommon. When I transfered my 90 gal to my 300 gal. I ditched the old sand kept a few handfuls to seed the tank and lost the rest. I also rinsed out my rock well. It was full of crap even though I basted it every other day like a religion.
The stuff accumulates. The Macro your using is a nitrate trap as well. Its holding nitrates that never go away till you trim it out. Thats its job to utilize the waste of the tank and store it so you can remove it. If you feed it back to the fish their waste has those same nitrates in it and are again released into the tank. A viscous circle if you will. Only way to remove those nitrates is trim out the over growth and get rid of it.
Dont know any of this for sure guy but sounds like you need to call in a LFS as a back up on you r perameters and maybe under the guise of common interest get someone out to evaluate your setup and maintance routine.
One hour from a pro is the difference of months worth of trial and error.
DrBDC
Active member
Please do not give incorrect chemistry advice.
Arm and hammer baking soda is a fine choice for an alkalinity supplement. It should be dissolved in water first though.
Calcium carbonate is a waste of time and money to be used as a calcium and alkalinity supplement.
Personally I would switch to a cheato for nutrient export though as the tendency to try to reproduce via sporulation is much smaller. If this happens you will see it turn white/clear and melt some. If you are not pulling out a good amount of it and trashing/sellling it every couple of weeks then it's not removing much. It should be increasing in mass at a very high speed with those nitrate levels.
I also think you may be doing too many water changes as a 10-15% weekly change is a very attentive and adequate schedule.
Arm and hammer baking soda is a fine choice for an alkalinity supplement. It should be dissolved in water first though.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8877485#post8877485 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
For a reef aquarium, baking soda may be better than some commercial buffers (those with borate).
If you want it to raise pH, bake it first.
Some buffers make wild claims about their ability to solve pH problems, based simply on the ratio of bicarbonate to carbonate in them. That's baloney, but does make a solution with a small to no pH effect. You can do that, if you want, by mixing baked and unbaked baking soda.
Calcium carbonate is a waste of time and money to be used as a calcium and alkalinity supplement.
Personally I would switch to a cheato for nutrient export though as the tendency to try to reproduce via sporulation is much smaller. If this happens you will see it turn white/clear and melt some. If you are not pulling out a good amount of it and trashing/sellling it every couple of weeks then it's not removing much. It should be increasing in mass at a very high speed with those nitrate levels.
I also think you may be doing too many water changes as a 10-15% weekly change is a very attentive and adequate schedule.
Rena,I have a 180 and here is what I do my sump has cheato in it. I started dosing randy's 2 part for high ph aat 100 ml. of each a day and monitored the results.I increased the dosing until I got the param. where I wanted and I'm at 400ml. of each a day that keeps the alk.@10.5 and the cal. @435ppm also the ph stay around 8.4.Always mix the baking soda with ro water as it doesn't disolve in saltwater very well and you can heat the water to help it disolve.When you do a water change are you using a python type of vac. to clean the sand bed if so I would as you are removing the good bacteria,slow down on the water changes to many to often can cause problems esp. if you ghange out large quantities.You have my number if you need to call.
Im Lon 2
Premium Member
I'm not sure what all the problems are from, but right now if it were me I would stop doing/adding anything to the tank, except top off. Give everything a chances to stable its self out. Maybe a few small water change once, or every other week at the most. You are trying to do to much at one time.
I would keep running Carbon, and maybe a Nitrate pad and that is about it.
As far as Temp I think you are fine as long as you are not going over 86°.
Remember nothing goods happen fast!
I would keep running Carbon, and maybe a Nitrate pad and that is about it.
As far as Temp I think you are fine as long as you are not going over 86°.
Remember nothing goods happen fast!
Rena, I'm terribly sorry to hear about your tank troubles 
I will likely feel/sound like a complete idiot after posting this, but it's worked for me. It doesn't sound like you have any SPS, so why are you so worried about Calcium and Alkalinity? Softies (and most LPS) do just fine with the amounts of Calcium and Alkalinity that your salt provides. When it gets used up it's replaced by what's in new water from a water change.
In my experience the more stuff you dose your tank with, the more trouble you have. I just do water changes, monitor nitrates, phosphates, pH, etc, and let the tank do its own thing. By adding stuff frequently all you're doing (IMO) is keeping the tank from reaching equilibrium, allowing the organisms in the tank to process the stuff in the water.
Something that Clark touched on...the higher your water temp, the less dissolved oxygen is in the water. I do not know of an ocean that is in the mid 80s year round. I just ran downstairs and looked at the temp on my 40 gallon breeder...it reads 78. I have a 30 gallon breeder upstairs that has a consistently high temp (around 82), can't seem to get it down, and the corals and fish are not nearly as colorful as in the tank downstairs. I'm not completely positive on this, but I have a feeling that your high temp has something to do with all of the problems you're having...maybe the lack of dissolved oxygen in the water?
I'm no genius, I'm just throwing ideas out there to see if I can help in any way or perhaps turn on some lightbulbs in people's heads. You're a great asset to the club, I would hate to see you give up on your tank, especially since you've been working so hard to get it going well
Now, a word on arguing with an "outsider." There have been a few people that have come into the STL saltwater forums to stir up trouble lately. I'm not saying that Biggie is stirring up trouble, he's trying to help, but it'd probably be best to agree to disagree instead of letting testosterone get the best of us I like to argue as much as the next person, but with reefkeeping, like so many other things in life, there are many ways of doing things, it just depends on what's correct in the owner's eyes. What's working for Biggie may not work for DrBDC and vice versa, it just depends on the individual's tank. Giving different advice is cool, and sometimes quite helpful...attacking another person's ideas in an inappropriate manner is not. Biggie, DrBDC is known on our forums as being quite knowledgeable about chemistry...he's done his homework and is trying to help just as you are. It's obvious that you two may have different methods, and that is fine, but let's not attack each other's ideas and ways of doing things. We need to focus less on who's right or wrong and more on getting Rena's tank back in order!
I will likely feel/sound like a complete idiot after posting this, but it's worked for me. It doesn't sound like you have any SPS, so why are you so worried about Calcium and Alkalinity? Softies (and most LPS) do just fine with the amounts of Calcium and Alkalinity that your salt provides. When it gets used up it's replaced by what's in new water from a water change.
In my experience the more stuff you dose your tank with, the more trouble you have. I just do water changes, monitor nitrates, phosphates, pH, etc, and let the tank do its own thing. By adding stuff frequently all you're doing (IMO) is keeping the tank from reaching equilibrium, allowing the organisms in the tank to process the stuff in the water.
Something that Clark touched on...the higher your water temp, the less dissolved oxygen is in the water. I do not know of an ocean that is in the mid 80s year round. I just ran downstairs and looked at the temp on my 40 gallon breeder...it reads 78. I have a 30 gallon breeder upstairs that has a consistently high temp (around 82), can't seem to get it down, and the corals and fish are not nearly as colorful as in the tank downstairs. I'm not completely positive on this, but I have a feeling that your high temp has something to do with all of the problems you're having...maybe the lack of dissolved oxygen in the water?
I'm no genius, I'm just throwing ideas out there to see if I can help in any way or perhaps turn on some lightbulbs in people's heads. You're a great asset to the club, I would hate to see you give up on your tank, especially since you've been working so hard to get it going well
Now, a word on arguing with an "outsider." There have been a few people that have come into the STL saltwater forums to stir up trouble lately. I'm not saying that Biggie is stirring up trouble, he's trying to help, but it'd probably be best to agree to disagree instead of letting testosterone get the best of us
I like to argue as much as the next person, but with reefkeeping, like so many other things in life, there are many ways of doing things, it just depends on what's correct in the owner's eyes. What's working for Biggie may not work for DrBDC and vice versa, it just depends on the individual's tank. Giving different advice is cool, and sometimes quite helpful...attacking another person's ideas in an inappropriate manner is not. Biggie, DrBDC is known on our forums as being quite knowledgeable about chemistry...he's done his homework and is trying to help just as you are. It's obvious that you two may have different methods, and that is fine, but let's not attack each other's ideas and ways of doing things. We need to focus less on who's right or wrong and more on getting Rena's tank back in order!
