SPS browning out now paling out! HELP!

[Mrmole]

I have been observing my corals over the last 6 months and I have noticed that they are deteriorating sadly...

My tank went through the following stages:

- When first bought from a local diver (wild caught), they had colors - not so great colors but I could tell which is purple which is green.

- They start to brown out because I had too much nutrients, I had 2 x150W MH 12000K and 4 t5 actinics at that time.

- 2 months ago I started bio pellets and Po4 Rowa. Nitrate and Po4 are undetectible. Colors are still brown except for LPS and zoa. Only acropora SPS are browning out.

- 2 months ago I also switched my lights to 2 x Ecotech Radions and acclimate my corals from 50% intensity to 100% over 2 weeks. Corals are still brown with no sign of improvement but they are growing like usual.

- 2 weeks ago I installed a new refugium with sea grapes and 3 abalones. no effect on coral colors but hair algea looks like it is under control.

- 1 week ago I reduce my Radions back to 50% and reduce photoperiod to 10h from 12h. Now corals are showing lack of colors even brown is slowly disappearing on the corals near the surface. The one down below are still alright (brown).

Water parameters are alk 9, ca 470, mg 1400, po4 nitrate both 0. temp 26.7c, 1025 salinity. I am dosing randy's 2 part.

Tank is a 120cm x 60cm x 60cm 120gal with sump. 2 radions. a vortech mp40. sump running caulerpa grapes with lots of pods playing on the glass.

I wish to have my colors back...
Can you help me see through this and point out which have I done wrong?

Here are the pictures

 

[Mrmole]

 

[Mrmole]

 

[Mrmole]

 

[SpinyReef]

bought from a local diver (wild caught), they had colors - not so great colors but I could tell which is purple which is green.

There's your problem. Some wild caught colonies will never color up again, no matter what you do. If you're positive your nutrients are low, they are pest free, lighting is appropriate, flow is good, etc..., the only chance you stand of seeing them color up again is not touch them at all and keep things stable. Even then they might stay brown.

 

[Mrmole]

That sounds kinda sad though i am trying to understand why wild corals are so hard to keep...

 

[acroholicreefer]

Most of the time new growth has brighter colors. If you can get them to grow, you will likely see better colors. Might not be as colorful as aquacultured acros but still better than brown. The problem is that sometimes wild acros do not grow well in captivity.

 

[Dog boy Dave]

My self. and most people I know that maintain long term healthy tanks see no difference at all in color or life span between long term multi generated wild colonies (frags or tank raised) or freshly caught wild. They were all wild when first caught. I have several "wild" colonies that have changed a lot as the generations have been produced but , if the tank is healthy, wild freshly collected heathy pieces do as well as cultured pieces.
However, it is true that large colonies dont move well but it has nothing to do with them being wild. Large colonies removed from my very old system do not do near as well as frags when I sell them to other people. After a colony grows into a place, its hard to move it to another good place. Hard but not impossible. You might try fraging some small pieces from you colonies and se if it stimulates new growth.

 

[Dog boy Dave]

That sounds kinda sad though i am trying to understand why wild corals are so hard to keep...

They are not. All they need is great water, just like any other coral. If they are not coloring up for you then your water quality is not yet adequate.
Based on your post, they are getting better as we speak. Patience is the key, It does take them a long time to recover from stress and you have changed a lot. They can loose color in minutes but it can take months for it to come back.

 

[Mrmole]

Great thanks guys! Dog boy. Please let me know if my lighting has problem. Should i keep my radions at 50%?

 

[Dog boy Dave]

Great thanks guys! Dog boy. Please let me know if my lighting has problem. Should i keep my radions at 50%?

I would keep watching your corals. As they exhibit new growth, and adjust to your aquarium dial the light into the intensity level that gives you the effects you are looking for. Usually, not always more light equals more intense colors so I like to keep my lights as intense as i can get them. Most of my friends think I over light but it has worked for me and my corals for a long time. Just watch them and go slow. Look for trends not final effect.

 

[JPMagyar]

My self. I . . . see no difference at all in color . . . between long term multi generated wild colonies (frags or tank raised) or freshly caught wild. . .



. . . . I have several "wild" colonies that have changed a lot as the generations have been produced

Dog Boy, Please understand that I enjoy discussing coral color more than most anything else I do, and when I question another person's opinions it in no way should be taken as personal, but simply a desire to open discussion, now having said that I must say that I find your statement to be both contradictory to itself and the complete opposite of my personal experience.

I am very good friends with several local LFS owners in Fairfield, CT area including Jason Edward of Greenwich Aquaria. The vast majority of wild colonies brought in ultimately do not survive, and those that do end up looking wholly different than they did when they arrived in a bag after 48 hours of transshipping from Fiji or Australia or wherever.


Mr. Mole,

I first would like to applaud your aquascaping. Your tank looks perfectly balanced even if your colors are less than ideal. Now first off what I will say next is highly controversial and not yet proven scientifically, but I have a large amount of personal experience that says LEDs kill many SPS especially wild SPS.

As I mentioned above I am friends with LFS owners. One store is running Radions over the show tanks and that store has witnessed a dramatic rise in coral deaths since installing Radions. Another wealthy individual I am helping has a 2000 gallon home system with 5 separate tanks in his basement. He is using Pacific Sun LEDs run by Profilux controllers, and has lost hundreds of SPS since changing from MH to LED. His LPS, acans, scolys, and zoos are all doing great, but virtually all his newly purchased SPS have died with a few exceptions. Another friend recently switched to ELOS LEDs. He had a basketball sized brain coral that he had kept for 17 years. It started to die. He brought it to me and it has started to recover in my system under VHOs. I have experimented with numerous LEDs over my own frag system and have found that some of my corals including the Oregon Tort and Tyree Purple Monster died under any LED I tried. I have sold 5 pieces of Oregon Tort to folks with LED tanks and all 5 frags died.

I write for a magazine and wrote an article about a nano tank that uses an AI nano LED and that tank is thriving including several SPS. LEDs work well for SOME SPS and most if not all LPS and zoos, but like digital music LEDs produce light using spikes of digitized photon wavelengths and we simply don't know enough about which wavelengths are needed to insure success for all SPS to be able to create the right mixture of digitized wavelengths.

My point here is that I recommend changing to a minimum of 8 T5s or 2 x 250 20000k MH plus four T5s for good color. SPS get most of their life sustaining energy from the zooxanthellae in the outer tissue and zoox live on light so your choice of light is THE most important selection. Just search the internet and list the 10 most colorul tanks you can find and they will have T5s or Radiums as the primary light source. Yes, I know not ALL colorful tanks have this and some colorful tanks use LEDs, but honestly list the 10 best and they all have T5 or Radiums.

Now once you have good lighting you need good biology. Tanks take time to mature and the more water volume you have the easier it is to maintain a balance in the biology, but even if you have a nano like the one I featured in my article you can do a great deal in keeping it healthy by frequent water changes. I recommend 10% weekly.

After all that it then takes time. Wild colonies need time to acclimate to captive conditions. I had a wild Gemmifera colony that I bought in 2007. It nearly died and the little piece I kept turned brown. Not until this year was I able to cut a frag and grow a new colony that had the original yellow with hints of blue color. It's the top most yellowish colony on the right side below.

I hope all that is a little helpful, and I also hope you will keep us posted on your progress.


Joe

 

[JAustin]

Also check for AEFW. They will stress a coral into browning before you even see adult bite marks. Take out a small colony that's brown and closely inspect for worms.

 

[bryman]

I had a similar problem. I think your lights are fine. It could be the biopellets. When they kick in, they work so well that they quickly strip all the nutrients out of your system. The SPS don't adjust as quickly as the biopellets strip the water. Also, now that you are carbon dosing, you need to lower your alk. Try to keep it at 8 or slightly above - 9 is too high. I find that using 25% of the recommended biopellet dosage is what works for me so you might want to take some out if you are running more. Any more and I can't feed enough to keep up with the biopellets. These are just my two cents. And BTW, your tank is gorgeous. I hope you get it sorted out soon, and your colors will come back.

 

[led stony]

I had the same problem with 2 radions on a 48 inch tank for 6 months. Then took them off and added 250 radium metal halide and a lot of corals look better and all bleaching stoped. I still have 3 brown out corals waiting to color back. Also added 4 t5 ati and two 250mh. I sold leds their is a reason why they came out with a new model and new lenses. Not bright enough for sps i think. Good luck.

 

[CHSUB]

Another wealthy individual I am helping has a 2000 gallon home system with 5 separate tanks in his basement. He is using Pacific Sun LEDs run by Profilux controllers, and has lost hundreds of SPS since changing from MH to LED. His LPS, acans, scolys, and zoos are all doing great, but virtually all his newly purchased SPS have died with a few exceptions.

could you elaborate more on this system and its problems?

 

[Mrmole]

Dog Boy, Please understand that I enjoy discussing coral color more than most anything else I do, and when I question another person's opinions it in no way should be taken as personal, but simply a desire to open discussion, now having said that I must say that I find your statement to be both contradictory to itself and the complete opposite of my personal experience.

I am very good friends with several local LFS owners in Fairfield, CT area including Jason Edward of Greenwich Aquaria. The vast majority of wild colonies brought in ultimately do not survive, and those that do end up looking wholly different than they did when they arrived in a bag after 48 hours of transshipping from Fiji or Australia or wherever.


Mr. Mole,

I first would like to applaud your aquascaping. Your tank looks perfectly balanced even if your colors are less than ideal. Now first off what I will say next is highly controversial and not yet proven scientifically, but I have a large amount of personal experience that says LEDs kill many SPS especially wild SPS.

As I mentioned above I am friends with LFS owners. One store is running Radions over the show tanks and that store has witnessed a dramatic rise in coral deaths since installing Radions. Another wealthy individual I am helping has a 2000 gallon home system with 5 separate tanks in his basement. He is using Pacific Sun LEDs run by Profilux controllers, and has lost hundreds of SPS since changing from MH to LED. His LPS, acans, scolys, and zoos are all doing great, but virtually all his newly purchased SPS have died with a few exceptions. Another friend recently switched to ELOS LEDs. He had a basketball sized brain coral that he had kept for 17 years. It started to die. He brought it to me and it has started to recover in my system under VHOs. I have experimented with numerous LEDs over my own frag system and have found that some of my corals including the Oregon Tort and Tyree Purple Monster died under any LED I tried. I have sold 5 pieces of Oregon Tort to folks with LED tanks and all 5 frags died.

I write for a magazine and wrote an article about a nano tank that uses an AI nano LED and that tank is thriving including several SPS. LEDs work well for SOME SPS and most if not all LPS and zoos, but like digital music LEDs produce light using spikes of digitized photon wavelengths and we simply don't know enough about which wavelengths are needed to insure success for all SPS to be able to create the right mixture of digitized wavelengths.

My point here is that I recommend changing to a minimum of 8 T5s or 2 x 250 20000k MH plus four T5s for good color. SPS get most of their life sustaining energy from the zooxanthellae in the outer tissue and zoox live on light so your choice of light is THE most important selection. Just search the internet and list the 10 most colorul tanks you can find and they will have T5s or Radiums as the primary light source. Yes, I know not ALL colorful tanks have this and some colorful tanks use LEDs, but honestly list the 10 best and they all have T5 or Radiums.

Now once you have good lighting you need good biology. Tanks take time to mature and the more water volume you have the easier it is to maintain a balance in the biology, but even if you have a nano like the one I featured in my article you can do a great deal in keeping it healthy by frequent water changes. I recommend 10% weekly.

After all that it then takes time. Wild colonies need time to acclimate to captive conditions. I had a wild Gemmifera colony that I bought in 2007. It nearly died and the little piece I kept turned brown. Not until this year was I able to cut a frag and grow a new colony that had the original yellow with hints of blue color. It's the top most yellowish colony on the right side below.

I hope all that is a little helpful, and I also hope you will keep us posted on your progress.


Joe

Thank you Joe,

It has been 3 years since i visited this thread. I disconnected my tank because of spike in career. Anyway without the financials i wont be able to sustain our hobby as i like.

Your tank has been an inspiration to me in aquascaping, in selection and coloration.

Now i have restarted for 4 months already with 200 gal tank with 2 Ai hydra 52's. Any improvements in the Leds ever since?

 

[pstank1]

Leds are perfectly capable of growing sps and all other corals. I haven't used those particular lights (i use kessils), but plenty of people have had success using them. I'm sure there is a thread in the lighting and filtration forum that is just for the AI's that'll have the specifics on how people use them.

 

[horseplay]

Your aquascaping looks great like others have mentioned. To me you have 3 potential problems.

1. LED works for some and I have seen some spectacular tanks running solely on them but it failed for a lot of people. I think at least it has a small margin of error when keeping SPS. I have tried LED in my frag tank it worked for some SPS but failed on most.

2. You might have a low nutrient problem. Your fish seem skinny and you're running both BP and GFO.

3. Wild colonies are notorious for changing colors when it goes into a tank. Dramatically different conditions. Try some well known easy ones like Red Planet, Green Slimer and see if you have the same browning problem as well.

Not saying any one of the above is your problem but hopefully give you something to think about.

 

[zachfishman]

Try removing the biopellets. I've tried biopellets on two different reef systems (TLF NPX pellets) and both times they caused coral bleaching even though both systems still had plenty of PO4 (>0.5ppm) and NO3 (>50ppm). It took months for the corals to color up again.