SPS Coral bleaching from bottom - STN ?

[Los]

I've been having the exact same issue. I have a 700 gallon system and I've been battling this off and on. I'm finally concluding that it is a combination of too low of nutrients with alk too high and too much light. Even with out running Zeo (or equivalent), it's possible to get ultra low nutrients in a regular reef. Combined with high alk and too much light is a recipe for STN from the base up. Take this with a grain of salt, though, since I have yet to lick the problem.

 

[roiy]

I've been having the exact same issue. I have a 700 gallon system and I've been battling this off and on. I'm finally concluding that it is a combination of too low of nutrients with alk too high and too much light. Even with out running Zeo (or equivalent), it's possible to get ultra low nutrients in a regular reef. Combined with high alk and too much light is a recipe for STN from the base up. Take this with a grain of salt, though, since I have yet to lick the problem.

Hi Los,

What is you're salinity ? ALK ? No3 ? Po4 ? how does you're lights goes on and off (what time) ? I think you have a lot in what you say here - starving corals and high lights.

 

[Los]

Tank = 360 gallon display / 700 gallon system

Salinity = 1.0267 = 35 ppt using 2 calibrated refractometers
Alk = 9 to 11 dkh LaMotte (I was running at 11 and have been dropping it slowly
NO3 = 0.0 ppm Salifert (never, ever been able to get a reading)
Po4 = 0.00 ppm Hach (never, ever been able to get a reading)
Calcium = 420 +/- 20 ppm Salifert
Magnesium = 1320 +/- 20 ppm Salifert

Display lights: 4 Sfiligoi XR6 400w metal halides + 16 24" T5s
Lights schedule:
T5s 11:00-21:30
MHs 13:30 - 19:30 (although these were on for 7 hours until I dialed them back 2 weeks ago)


Feeding schedule:
I have a 700 gallon system, heavily stocked with corals, but with only half a dozen small fish. It is very lightly stocked. I feed them the same amount I fed them when they were in my 90 gallon and that was probably too little for even that tank. Recently, I've started adding Amino Acids from KZ, with 1ml/day, but only about every third day.

I also have a refugium. In the past year, I've only once had to remove some chaetomorpha. It grows super-slow. Skimmer is a BK300 Deluxe.

Interestingly, it used to get better whenever I would put in new carbon and GFO. In hindsight, I think the GFO and carbon were precipitating out some of the alk, which is what really made the corals happier. The GFO / carbon mix would end up as a solid block with much of it covered with white calcium & alk.

Water change schedule = 43 gallons every week.

 

[DeathWish302]

I thought about it.
As for additives I dosed 7.5ml per day (approx 50ml per week) for 500L water (kind like the manufacture recommends).
I started taking it down to 5ml per day (70% of the initial amount).

Do you think i should take it down some more ?

I Dose 2 kind of fauna's amino acid every day along with some other fauna stuff
but i don't think the corals are really starving.
Is this type of death is common for millopora corals ? STN from the bottom ?

thanks for the info all :spin3:

I've not had milles STN ever. I do have a dull brown stag frag I acquired as a freebie that I've recently had STN problems with. I acquired it after switching to a 20k halide I was experimenting with. Slowly the color went from brown to baby-blue tips and bright blue branches/base. I decided the growth under 20k was lacking for my tastes, so I switched about 3 weeks ago. BAMM! That beautiful frag started STN the next day which has nearly creeped to a halt. No flatworms or redbugs anywhere to be found, no algae growing on the skeleton & no additives dosed until in the last week EVER! The light is definitely my problem as I completely shocked that sensitive coral which explains the coloration from the beginning.

Have you changed lighting anytime in the past few weeks?

 

[roiy]

I've not had milles STN ever. I do have a dull brown stag frag I acquired as a freebie that I've recently had STN problems with. I acquired it after switching to a 20k halide I was experimenting with. Slowly the color went from brown to baby-blue tips and bright blue branches/base. I decided the growth under 20k was lacking for my tastes, so I switched about 3 weeks ago. BAMM! That beautiful frag started STN the next day which has nearly creeped to a halt. No flatworms or redbugs anywhere to be found, no algae growing on the skeleton & no additives dosed until in the last week EVER! The light is definitely my problem as I completely shocked that sensitive coral which explains the coloration from the beginning.

Have you changed lighting anytime in the past few weeks?

The second coral that has been doing STN is a dark green stag (much alike yours with blueish tips) and it started from the base and stopped like the milli 2 days ago.
I did not make a change in lighting lately, I am using a simple (marine color brand) MH bulbs and been using them for 6 months now. I also thought of this direction (lack\over lightning) so I ordered 2 new bulbs (same brand same 10,000K) in order to change the used one so as not to have insufficient lighting.
I think this is a very good idea and surly can cause this phenomenon

 

[DeathWish302]

The second coral that has been doing STN is a dark green stag (much alike yours with blueish tips) and it started from the base and stopped like the milli 2 days ago.
I did not make a change in lighting lately, I am using a simple (marine color brand) MH bulbs and been using them for 6 months now. I also thought of this direction (lack\over lightning) so I ordered 2 new bulbs (same brand same 10,000K) in order to change the used one so as not to have insufficient lighting.
I think this is a very good idea and surly can cause this phenomenon

When you replace lighting (especially when changing spectrums) DON'T rush the acclimation period. I don't change photoperiod, but raise my light higher above the tank. After the 20k experiment, I pushed the light up another ft and dropped it to the current height in only 2 weeks. Way too fast and I paid with STN on 1 frag. Nothing comes quickly in this hobby except chaos, death & destuction...

 

[Atomikk]

I've been having the exact same issue. I have a 700 gallon system and I've been battling this off and on. I'm finally concluding that it is a combination of too low of nutrients with alk too high and too much light. Even with out running Zeo (or equivalent), it's possible to get ultra low nutrients in a regular reef. Combined with high alk and too much light is a recipe for STN from the base up. Take this with a grain of salt, though, since I have yet to lick the problem.

This is 100% true. A lot of people can achieve low nutrient systems without actually implementing Zeo or Ultralith systems.

It is unfortunately funny because the answers to your STN problems you can find on ZeoVit forums. Things like Potassium, Bromide, Iron, Strontium, can all be depleted at higher rates in a low untrient system. This is what causes color loss, and if supplemented with a lot of light, STN.

 

[DeathWish302]

It is unfortunately funny because the answers to your STN problems you can find on ZeoVit forums. Things like Potassium, Bromide, Iron, Strontium, can all be depleted at higher rates in a low untrient system. This is what causes color loss, and if supplemented with a lot of light, STN.

How are these 'consumed' at higher rates? I have been supplementing Iron in the last couple weeks, but I'm perplexed at Bromide, Strontium & Potassium....

How do you measure your Bromide and Potassium? I've read all tests out are garbage. The strontium in IO/RC is above NSW, so I would hope with water changes this usage (if any) would be sufficient. I have read an article in Coral magazine that states it cannot be stated if Strontium is even a required element of just one that is bound in the skeleton b/c it is present.

Not trying to shoot your opinion in the foot. I'm having color-loss issues myself and trying to understand the dynamics of a ULNS. I have one due to a turf scrubber that is in place to eliminate cyano and need answers on what is best to supplement. That's a whole different thread though....

 

[roiy]

This is 100% true. A lot of people can achieve low nutrient systems without actually implementing Zeo or Ultralith systems.

It is unfortunately funny because the answers to your STN problems you can find on ZeoVit forums. Things like Potassium, Bromide, Iron, Strontium, can all be depleted at higher rates in a low untrient system. This is what causes color loss, and if supplemented with a lot of light, STN.

I would guess otherwise - since in a low nutrient system the corals get their colors lighter because of the low number of symbiotic algae. In that case the consuming of most of this elements will get lower if even changed.
Am i missing something ?

 

[Atomikk]

How are these 'consumed' at higher rates? I have been supplementing Iron in the last couple weeks, but I'm perplexed at Bromide, Strontium & Potassium....

How do you measure your Bromide and Potassium? I've read all tests out are garbage. The strontium in IO/RC is above NSW, so I would hope with water changes this usage (if any) would be sufficient. I have read an article in Coral magazine that states it cannot be stated if Strontium is even a required element of just one that is bound in the skeleton b/c it is present.

Not trying to shoot your opinion in the foot. I'm having color-loss issues myself and trying to understand the dynamics of a ULNS. I have one due to a turf scrubber that is in place to eliminate cyano and need answers on what is best to supplement. That's a whole different thread though....

Until recently, this was unknown to me too. I have scowered the ZeoVit forums, and they specifically say that this happens. One big indicator of K loss(Potassium) is the lightening of the blue in corals. You can use a test kit, i think manufactured by them (Zeo) for Potassium. As for Bromide, there isn't anything at this moment.

The thing is, I am not a proponent of their products and methods. I am just giving you what they say about STN, as it is quite accurate.

 

[DeathWish302]

Until recently, this was unknown to me too. I have scowered the ZeoVit forums, and they specifically say that this happens. One big indicator of K loss(Potassium) is the lightening of the blue in corals. You can use a test kit, i think manufactured by them (Zeo) for Potassium. As for Bromide, there isn't anything at this moment.

The thing is, I am not a proponent of their products and methods. I am just giving you what they say about STN, as it is quite accurate.

Potassium is removed in a Zeovit system b/c of the zeolith rock, shich you DO NOT need to achieve a ULNS. If you not running zeolite, you should not have a K problem. I don't know if you would want to throw Bromide in unless you can test. Too much is just as bad as too little.

I agree also that I'm not sold on the Zeo/Brightwell horde of supplements. There are just too many variables with these systems with a BROAD spectrum of what is considered a 'sucessful' tank with these additives.

A zeo tank is a completely different monster, so I don't know that you can apply these principals across the board. They can't even run high alk and Ca w/o some problems. I'm into experimenting with a tank, but zeo is just not for me and I'm not sold on the claims that I've seen on that forum. Every tank is different though....:worried:

 

[Los]

"You can use a test kit, i think manufactured by them (Zeo) for Potassium.."

Save your money and buy something else; the KZ test kit is worthless. My water "tested" around 220ppm or so and it wouldn't budge regardless of potassium additions. I then opened a brand new bottle of 60,000ppm potassium solution and blended it with tank water so that I would be increasing that sample by 400ppm. That should have led to a concentration of roughly 620ppm. When I tested that sample, it was still 220ppm.

I thought the Potassium bottle must have been bad. So I bought another from another company. That was 80,000ppm potassium. I again mixed up a solution which should have increased my tank water from 220 to 620 (by adding 2ml of well mixed 80,000ppm solution into 400ml of tank water). Tested that mixture using KZ's potassium kit and... wait for it... 220 again. I even tried testing the 80,000ppm potassium solution itself and I *think* it measured a bit higher than 220, but it's hard to tell with that test kit.

My KZ kit may measure something, but it is not measuring the concentration of potassium.

 

[DeathWish302]

"You can use a test kit, i think manufactured by them (Zeo) for Potassium.."

Save your money and buy something else; the KZ test kit is worthless. My water "tested" around 220ppm or so and it wouldn't budge regardless of potassium additions. I then opened a brand new bottle of 60,000ppm potassium solution and blended it with tank water so that I would be increasing that sample by 400ppm. That should have led to a concentration of roughly 620ppm. When I tested that sample, it was still 220ppm.

I thought the Potassium bottle must have been bad. So I bought another from another company. That was 80,000ppm potassium. I again mixed up a solution which should have increased my tank water from 220 to 620 (by adding 2ml of well mixed 80,000ppm solution into 400ml of tank water). Tested that mixture using KZ's potassium kit and... wait for it... 220 again. I even tried testing the 80,000ppm potassium solution itself and I *think* it measured a bit higher than 220, but it's hard to tell with that test kit.

My KZ kit may measure something, but it is not measuring the concentration of potassium.

I read your KZ test kit experience in another thread and decided that any potassium additions would have to be solely by 'feel'. Not sold on K as a culprit in a non-zeolite system and STN yet....

 

[sweetnsour]

hey everyone , anyone find the problem to this yet?

 

[Los]

Nope, still battling it. Since my last post, I've eliminated a HUGE colony of Hydnophora (so big it wouldn't fit in a 5 gallon bucket) and I'm waiting to see if that helps, since Hydno may have allelopathic abilities. Interestingly, I put a UV sterilizer in between my main tank and my frag tank, so that all the water going to the frag tank first goes through the UV, and that greatly reduced the STN in that tank. Unfortunately, it is still sporadically taking out my corals in my display.

 

[jlaurence32]

I'm having the same STN problem too. Oddly enough my corals are bleaching one species at a time. First it was all the birdsnests, then all the mille's, now it's moving to the pocci's. All the acros are fine. I also have a very low nutrient system. It all began about a month after I started using GFO. I pulled the GFO about 3 months ago but it's still progressing. I would consider myself a light feeder and that plus other factors equal weak corals. Some problems I'm considering are: starvation, high tank temp (runs around 83 in summer), high ph/alk (ph gets high 8.5 to get alk at 3.5 m/eq) and maybe lighting (running 9 hours with 350 par at sandbed). All I know is all my friends that have great looking corals super feed them multiple times a day. They got huge algae problems but their corals look great.

 

[sen5241b]

Assuming RTN or STN is caused by bacteria (a serious possibility) you may wish to consider lowering temp. There are some bacteria known to harm corals that will bloom at precise temperatures --like 82.

 

[maddog2002]

I think GFO is the problem. My SPS started to STN when I added too much GFO.

 

[gig]

I also have a mille frag that is now showing STN from the bottom up, after about a week, it has completely taken over the lower/smaller branches that are near the plug around a cm long I'd guess.

My tank has been running hotter due to the change in seasons, the tank is in the basement, where it keeps the tank between 79 and under 80 during the summer with the AC on, but in the fall where the AC doesn't kick on, the tank tends to be 80 and even creep to near 82 by end of the day.

My lights are a combo VHO and T5's, the VHo's ar3 6 mo old and the T5's are coming up on 9 mo, I have replacements bought and need to change them out this week.

I'm not sure what it could be, but it sucks!

 

[Lemmy5]

As usual I typed a nice big reply only to have it freeze up when I tried to post it.

So in conclusion:
GFO and my experience with Bio pellets in my Phosban remover seem to be a link in my SPS bleaching.