SPS Insanity

[CUNAReefer]

Hi Alex,

If someone bought coral from me, and they had a tank crash, I would happily give them free frags just to get them started again. No, I do not sell corals... yet. My corals are still growing out to a perpetual harvest size.

My hobby experience began when I was 7 when I won a gold fish at an ice cream social. When I was 13, I began a fresh water 40g. When I was 19, I began my first saltwater tank (90g). My 90 consisted of LPS and softies. Over my first years (before I new about forums), my skilter filter constantly overflowed and ruined the ceiling below my bedroom many times. I lost dozens of fish to ick because I was learning on my own. I knew very little about proper husbandry other than what the folks at the LFS told me. I only purchased colonies and didn't even know what a frag was. 11 years later, I gained quite a bit of reefing knowledge and graduated with honors with a degree in finance. My career included capital markets, IT consulting, and Corporate Strategy with some of the biggest companies in the world (GE, Pepsi, Morgan Stanley, etc.). I chose to take my life's passion (keeping reefs) and pursue it as a business. I have a lawyer, a financial model, and a propagation system that is still in its infancy stage. I will eventually pay taxes, business license fees, and have overhead expenses. I will also hire my fellow Americans.

The high end sports car example is an analogy to help folks understand the forces of supply and demand.

Warmest Regards,
James

I agree with paying it forward. I've been given some frags that have done exceptionally well and recently started buying and restocking my SPS tank after an alkalinity nightmare last April. My goal is to grow them out and share them with local reefers so that if something ever happened to my tank again I could get a frag back.

I've given many people frags from my tank and never asked for money or anything in return unless there's something they may have that may be a good trade. I never got into this hobby to make money, and I think it's sad if this is not your full-time business with an on-line store and your prices are raping people. Trust me, none of you have anything "rare". You simply have a morphed color or growth pattern that is making its' rounds this year, or possibly a coral that just recently has been allowed to be harvested. Stop calling them rare. The only thing that will be rare if this price gauging continues is an unsustainable hobby with people that actually have money left in their pockets. I don't care what the coral is, you bought it to enjoy it for its' growth pattern, color, yada yada yada. Selling it with "Supply and Demand" in mind is non-sense to me. Some say they frag and sell their corals to supplement the cost of the hobby. This in itself is disheartening to hear.

There's many on the sales forums that are willing to give 10 frags for $100, which in my opinion is awesome. We're not talking about high end, status symbol sports cars here are we? These colorful sticks are a product of our skills in husbandry, patience and a keen understanding of the precious animals we keep. We should be proud of them and willing to share our knowledge with anyone new to the hobby or SPS keeping. You'll never see my name selling frags in the sales forum, but if you're local and would like a frag of something I have, shoot me a PM and I'll let you know when I'm cutting it.

Nuff said.

 

[aquaph8]

come on man, the crying about prices already destroyed the zoathid forum. Lets not start it in the sps forum too. There is plenty of stuff that most of us cant afford but there is always some very beautiful stuff that is in a lower price range. Ive seen many local fish stores with full tanks of $15 dollar corals and Ive seen many brown sps frags turn to something spectacular with proper care. This hobby has corals for every budget as long as you dont get caught up in wanting what everybody else wants.

 

[skulls&sparrows]

Honestly...this is how the world works...There are lots of things I want to buy, but can not because they are out of my price range...should I complain about it? I guess I could, but its just how life goes and personally I am ok with it...

Like others said, supply and demand...as for your prices, thats great, but I will charge as much for something as I can get out of it...also the superman monti is not in the demand it used to me...simply because coral growers saw the value in it and started aqua-culturing it and now you can buy colonies for like $80 on a regular basis, a 2 inch frag wont go for more then 20-30...granted the big colonies might not have the lineage of the original superman...but people dont care, they just want a blue skeleton with a red polyps...There are like 4 poker stay monti colonies on Live Aquaria last time I checked for like $70 bucks and that was a hot coral about 4 years ago...the demand has gone down, thus the price has gone down...There are new corals that are garnering $300 a frag, because there are no other suppliers of it adn they can command whatever price they want...its what the US is built on...

Like @hybridazn said if you do not like the prices dont buy and if everyone did that, then the price would drop...but until that happens and people are fine with the price per size of frag...nothing will change, welcome to the capitalist market!

@CUNAreefer...just an FYI, why I get your point and agree with it, the Bugatti is sold at a loss of 100% it takes twice as much to build that car then they sell it for...They VW, built it to prove that they could build the fastest most impressive car in the world (they lost that title and have since re-gained it back with the new veyron) and have people buy it...they did but it was at loss...just some insight ;-)

 

[CUNAReefer]

@Skulls&Sparrows: :wavehand:

Honestly...this is how the world works...There are lots of things I want to buy, but can not because they are out of my price range...should I complain about it? I guess I could, but its just how life goes and personally I am ok with it...

Like others said, supply and demand...as for your prices, thats great, but I will charge as much for something as I can get out of it...also the superman monti is not in the demand it used to me...simply because coral growers saw the value in it and started aqua-culturing it and now you can buy colonies for like $80 on a regular basis, a 2 inch frag wont go for more then 20-30...granted the big colonies might not have the lineage of the original superman...but people dont care, they just want a blue skeleton with a red polyps...There are like 4 poker stay monti colonies on Live Aquaria last time I checked for like $70 bucks and that was a hot coral about 4 years ago...the demand has gone down, thus the price has gone down...There are new corals that are garnering $300 a frag, because there are no other suppliers of it adn they can command whatever price they want...its what the US is built on...

Like @hybridazn said if you do not like the prices dont buy and if everyone did that, then the price would drop...but until that happens and people are fine with the price per size of frag...nothing will change, welcome to the capitalist market!

@CUNAreefer...just an FYI, why I get your point and agree with it, the Bugatti is sold at a loss of 100% it takes twice as much to build that car then they sell it for...They VW, built it to prove that they could build the fastest most impressive car in the world (they lost that title and have since re-gained it back with the new veyron) and have people buy it...they did but it was at loss...just some insight ;-)

 

[Alex T.]

Cuna,

As I stated in my post, I was not going after the person or persons that have coral propagation as a business. If you were offended, it was not my intent. I point the finger at those that have been introduced to the hobby, grow out their frags and sell them for ridiculous prices. Like those who say they have to "prune their reef" so here's a great deal on 5 LE frags for $200 and buyer pays shipping. I know it's up to what the market can bare, trust me. You've shown us your credentials, and I'm also a business minded person.

I've worked for some of the largest advertising agencies in the world...Young & Rubicam, FCB and Lowe & Partners all in New York. I used to specialize in BS for a living. Coming out and saying you've developed a business plan and formed a business model is admirable. I have nothing against coral farmers and aquaculture centers like yourself and ORA. Quite the contrary. I take issue with fellow hobbyists that feel they have frags made of gold and sell them for sometimes more than they paid.

 

[Alex T.]

skulls and sparrows,

You're not growing these Bughattis in your living room are you? I'm well aware of how the world works. I'm more interested in how we as hobbyists should think. If you did your research on how to attract a beautiful migratory bird to your backyard would you charge fellow birdwatchers to come and see it? Any hobbyist who's seen my tank has been offered a frag if they like something.

Now if you had a private bird sanctuary as a business with taxes, overhead, local zoning permits and the like it would be a different story. I'm just not keen on keeping things in the hobby to myself and looking to gain financially from something that I get so much joy in sharing. I think Divers' Den, Wet Thumb Frags, Vivid and all the other respected online vendors are doing what they need to do to run a profitable business. All I'm saying is that some "hobbyists" make me question their true intent when they post on these forums. I for one, will always share the goods for free or trade. JMHO

 

[CUNAReefer]

Hi Alex T.,

Completely understood :wave: Now I know who to go to when I start advertisting!

Happy Holidays,
James

Cuna,

As I stated in my post, I was not going after the person or persons that have coral propagation as a business. If you were offended, it was not my intent. I point the finger at those that have been introduced to the hobby, grow out their frags and sell them for ridiculous prices. Like those who say they have to "prune their reef" so here's a great deal on 5 LE frags for $200 and buyer pays shipping. I know it's up to what the market can bare, trust me. You've shown us your credentials, and I'm also a business minded person.

I've worked for some of the largest advertising agencies in the world...Young & Rubicam, FCB and Lowe & Partners all in New York. I used to specialize in BS for a living. Coming out and saying you've developed a business plan and formed a business model is admirable. I have nothing against coral farmers and aquaculture centers like yourself and ORA. Quite the contrary. I take issue with fellow hobbyists that feel they have frags made of gold and sell them for sometimes more than they paid.

 

[dots]

Hey guys, its pretty obvious the OP was miffed about some corals he wanted to buy and decided to "troll" it out here to validate his being upset.

They are just looking for a choir to back them up right now.....please don't throw yourself on his sword......and let it lie.

 

[tnyr5]

Prices are what they are, but there should be a size limit to frags that you sell. Anything under an inch really just doesn't do very well in my experience and the experience of many others. I'll give away smaller, but unless it's an inch i don't like to sell it.

 

[29reef]

How did this thread get to two pages? Come on mods...

 

[aquaph8]

How did this thread get to two pages? Come on mods...

:lolspin:

 

[tmgrash]

Cuna,

As I stated in my post, I was not going after the person or persons that have coral propagation as a business. If you were offended, it was not my intent. I point the finger at those that have been introduced to the hobby, grow out their frags and sell them for ridiculous prices. Like those who say they have to "prune their reef" so here's a great deal on 5 LE frags for $200 and buyer pays shipping. I know it's up to what the market can bare, trust me. You've shown us your credentials, and I'm also a business minded person.

I've worked for some of the largest advertising agencies in the world...Young & Rubicam, FCB and Lowe & Partners all in New York. I used to specialize in BS for a living. Coming out and saying you've developed a business plan and formed a business model is admirable. I have nothing against coral farmers and aquaculture centers like yourself and ORA. Quite the contrary. I take issue with fellow hobbyists that feel they have frags made of gold and sell them for sometimes more than they paid.

Shouldnt you be mad at the people that buy them then? How could you blame someone for trying to make a buck? I guess if they were dishonest about their product you could blame them.

Ya'll sound like a bunch of whiners complaining about the Jones's. If you dont like the price dont buy it, Do you also complain about how much you had to pay for your house because of the greedy builders, and how they landscapers CHARGE you for landscape, how dare them, they propagated those plants and should "pay it forward", your neighbor got a new car and didnt "share" his old one with you, cant believe hobbiest charge for the akc puppies they had. Why dont they better the hobby and give those things away. If it were easy and everyone could "manage" to do it, would it still be worth the challenge?

This sounds like an extremely vocal minority here. The price is right BECAUSE people are paying it.

FYI I have never sold a coral to anyone, but I am willing to buy and dont expect any freebies.

I have nothing against swapping and trading in your local area/club, but getting mad about prices? Really? Dont buy it then.

 

[wickedfish]

He is a nice man trying to be a good guy. That seems to only go a long way for other good people.

Of course people need to make a buck and of course the going price for something is either purchased or not. Who doesn't hate a nub that remains a nub for months?

Oh and BTW, I hate whiners. Why do people cry to the mods seriously.....

 

[dixiedog]

I have a vision of a world with $5 red dragon acros and it is a wonderful place.

LOL - can I use that for a sig line???:bounce3:

 

[Creetin]

Hey guys, its pretty obvious the OP was miffed about some corals he wanted to buy and decided to "troll" it out here to validate his being upset.

They are just looking for a choir to back them up right now.....please don't throw yourself on his sword......and let it lie.

I agree

 

[buy_baff]

I agree

+1 Also I am poor and my tank would have never gotten to the level it is without selling frags to pay for all my tanks needs and new corals. I never charge anywhere near what I paid. But I see nothing wronge with doing so if you like.

 

[d0ughb0y]

I don't know about supply and demand, I always see this paradox
on one thread, one will say, hey this coral grows like weeds (hence there should be plenty of supply), but then you go to the selling forum, the same people are selling it at liveaquaria prices with no guarantees like liveaquaria

I think it is more due to greed.

another paradox in this hobby, someone selling a frag pack for $200 fedex overnight, I contact the seller for local pickup, and price is still $200. I have this happen many times already.

greed again I think. but hey, isn't greed good?

 

[Allmost]

what REALLY gets to me, is ppl advertising to sell "cheato" for 10 bucks a bag !!!

like COME ON!!!!

 

[thebanker]

I agree with all of you guys. It is insanity. Have I paid $20 for a little "fragling"? Yes.

You know what they say, it's a fair price if the buyer is willing to pay it.