Dog boy Dave
New member
Jeremy, The only issue i can imagine with the water softener is an impurity in the salt itself that is being introduced by the softener. The reason I would remove it from the equation is its not needed and easy to eliminate.
SPS irritated when I try to raise alk above 6.5 dkh????
- Thread starter jlinzmaier
- Start date
jlinzmaier
Premium Member
Certainly a possibility, but I were to bet on it, I'd be far more inclined to think there would be much more of a chance of heavy metals or other impurities in my tap water than what might leach from the salt in a water softener.
Jeremy
Dog boy Dave
New member
Well you are betting on it. Like any bet, look at the cost and the potential payoff. Good luck.
the_rider
New member
Hi Jeremy
I have the same problem as you, my alk is kept around 6.7 dkh, higher than that I can see my acro getting burned tip. I did some research on the subject. My system is UNLS, I can't detect any NO3 using salifert and red sea. I will however try the new D-D test which is an low-range nitrate test.
What I found out was that alk react molecularly with "something" present in the water (cannot remember what, I think it was nutrient but I'm not sure) anyhow, in UNLS system, since nutrient are so low, alk need something to bound/react with and the only thing available left in UNLS may be tissues from our lovely SPS so that why we get alk burn tip. I don't remember the thread where I read this tho ... But it was something along those lines.
This is one of the reason Zeovit User tend to keep their alk level lower. Since then, I stop trying to raise my alk over 7 dkh and never got problem.
hopefully it helps
Alex B
I have the same problem as you, my alk is kept around 6.7 dkh, higher than that I can see my acro getting burned tip. I did some research on the subject. My system is UNLS, I can't detect any NO3 using salifert and red sea. I will however try the new D-D test which is an low-range nitrate test.
What I found out was that alk react molecularly with "something" present in the water (cannot remember what, I think it was nutrient but I'm not sure) anyhow, in UNLS system, since nutrient are so low, alk need something to bound/react with and the only thing available left in UNLS may be tissues from our lovely SPS so that why we get alk burn tip. I don't remember the thread where I read this tho ... But it was something along those lines.
This is one of the reason Zeovit User tend to keep their alk level lower. Since then, I stop trying to raise my alk over 7 dkh and never got problem.
hopefully it helps
Alex B
the_rider
New member
I found the post I was talking about. I quote a member of another forum.
Kolognekoral
In addition to what Bob has noted, we should consider that in a ULNS tank, there are fewer stray organics, which is the point. Now, CO3 (carbonate), which is what Alk actually measures, is a reactive substance. In overabundance (high Alk) it may well start to react with what nutrients it can find in the water, but then move on to living tissues, where it may be actually attacking the structure, thus tip burn. It may, also, be that the increased attempt fo the coral a metabolizing carbonate upsets their metabolism.
There are lots of possible reasons for the stress we see in the corals, which we have yet to understand. The oceans are balanced at very specific and stabile levels for the basic elements they contain. Life forms have evolved in this environment and perfected their system to function optimally under these conditions. Albeit an aquarium is by definition artificial, but mimicing nature is still the best option to keep marine organisms healthy and growing. Artificially high or low Ca+, Mg+, Alk, etc. can only end up as stress factors.
Kolognekoral
In addition to what Bob has noted, we should consider that in a ULNS tank, there are fewer stray organics, which is the point. Now, CO3 (carbonate), which is what Alk actually measures, is a reactive substance. In overabundance (high Alk) it may well start to react with what nutrients it can find in the water, but then move on to living tissues, where it may be actually attacking the structure, thus tip burn. It may, also, be that the increased attempt fo the coral a metabolizing carbonate upsets their metabolism.
There are lots of possible reasons for the stress we see in the corals, which we have yet to understand. The oceans are balanced at very specific and stabile levels for the basic elements they contain. Life forms have evolved in this environment and perfected their system to function optimally under these conditions. Albeit an aquarium is by definition artificial, but mimicing nature is still the best option to keep marine organisms healthy and growing. Artificially high or low Ca+, Mg+, Alk, etc. can only end up as stress factors.
jlinzmaier
Premium Member
Thanks Alex.
Having ran a zeo system for 18 months in the past, I've heard all the "potential myths" about why the elevated alk levels can be harmful. Unfortunately none of the theories have been proven and Farley and the other chem guys have provided a lot of logic to argue against the theories the zeo guys come up with. There definately is a connection between running an ULNS which is bacterial driven and having tissue loss when alk is elevated however, I'm not running a bacterial driven system. Many people are able to maintain ULNS parameters without the use of bacterial proliferation and run their alk upwards of 10 or 11 dkh without trouble. I've never heard of the problem being so significant without the use of bacterial proliferation to drive the nutrients down - which I'm not doing.
Appreciate the thoughts.
I'm leaning more towards the liklihood of an elevated trace element/heavy metal. My corals clearly react negatively with water changes. My TDS from my com-100 reads about 0.75 TDS and if that consists of copper or lead then maybe that's the problem.
Here's what I'm going to do. Before I pay for the expensive lab testing of my water I'm going to do a polyfilter test. I'm assuming if there is cu getting past the RO/DI then any test kit won't detect levels that low (at least not very definitively). I'm going to let a polyfilter do some testing for me. I have a spare canister for my RO system. After my DI I'm going to have the water pass through a canister packed with polyfilter. It may take weeks or even a few months for a color change to show if there is copper coming through but it's at least worth a try IMO. It'll only cost $8 for the polyfilter and I can't see it harming anything. Meanwhile, I'm going to keep treating my RO/DI water with some heavy metal detoxifier in case it's something that the polyfilter won't provide a direct color change to indicate what it's adsorbing (lead for example).
Any thoughts??
Jeremy
DeathWish302
Clown Hoarder
I've read in the past an article by Randy about kalkwasser and the resulting particles that settle out with a huge qty of heavy metals. Unfortunately, I don't think the levels you speak of would do much. Maybe worth a try though....
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php
Good Luck!
jlinzmaier
Premium Member
Thanks.
Yeah. In Randy's Kalk article he talks about how kalk is essentially self purifying. As water becomes saturated the hydroxide ions react with heavy metals and various elements which then precipitate out and settle to the bottom. That's the reasoning behind never dosing anything other than properly mixed kalk that has had a chance to setttle and let those precipitates come to rest on the bottom of the bin.
I always let my kalk sit for at least a few hours after mixing, never dose anything after the level reaches about 4 inches from the bottom, and never stir up the container once it's already mixed. I'm pretty careful with my kalk reservior for the fear of dosing those trace elements that precipitate out. I'm concerned that the trace heavy metals may be getting through my RO/DI and becoming problematic when I mix my saltwater.
Appreciate your input!
Just ordered the polyfilter today and I'm going to tie my RO unit into my water line at a location where it is just plastic pex tubing instead of the valve I have clamped onto the copper line. Maybe the brass connector fixed onto the copper line is generating some sort of leaching of copper into the water. Just a shot in the dark like everything else since all the simple and blatently logical ideas have been ruled out.
Jeremy
KrazyOnetime
New member
As I mentioned before I have the EXACT same issue as you. So far I haven't been able to figure it out either i've replaced every filter (ro/di) checked and tested everything I can think of for 6-8 months. I did however induce the verry same type of event by replacing my HC GFO that shouldn't have been that bad but with the "overfeeding" ect. i've been doing because the ULNS theory sounded likely to me as well I began to experience cyno/algae slightly. Which by the way I have never ever had a problem with. Do your Montis (plating) suffer worse? Mine do.
Jli,
I am in the same boat as you except for one thig I am running a ulns and I have to keep my alk at 8 to 7 or esle my sps will stn.
As for what tooth guy stated I am also going to hook up a doser and have my alk at 8 to 7.5 I will not be able to run a cal reactor because of the ulns.
Thank you The_rider for that information
I am in the same boat as you except for one thig I am running a ulns and I have to keep my alk at 8 to 7 or esle my sps will stn.
As for what tooth guy stated I am also going to hook up a doser and have my alk at 8 to 7.5 I will not be able to run a cal reactor because of the ulns.
Thank you The_rider for that information
Chris Lakies
Active member
Maybe i missed it in another post... Maybe your calcium reactor is depressing your ph? A low ph will hinder growth..
dunk373
New member
I'm very interested in this also seems to me a lot of guys have this problem I personally do not, but know someone who has similar issues except his sps die. One suggestion, i noticed you use well water, while well water may be better for us we have no clue whats in it could be by a farm and have some pesticide or who knows what. I would like to see anyone with these problems list their water type, all test info ex. nitrate, phosphate, s.g., ph, water temp, magnesium, alk, calcium... and may have missed some also what brand or how you are testing. Seems water changes effect your sps, how often do you change water? Have you tried not changing water a month, two? if everyone with the problems has any similarities we may get to the bottom of this. I am not sure about the softener but i would try some prefilters after your pump 2-3 in series some cheap lowes canister filters will filter out some good stuff i personally use two a 20 micron (i think) then into a 5 micron carbon. I changed my ro filters after 2 years and sanitized my bladder tanks and it was as clean as the new ones. I have pretreated tower water. Oh and is it deep or shallow well your pump external or submersible
jlinzmaier
Premium Member
My troubles seem to have resolved since I switched salt mixes. I now use reef crystals which has a vey high alk (previously used tropic marin and red sea which have very low alk levels). When I do water changes the corals respond very positively - increased polyp ext, better feeding response at night, full tissue expansion, etc...
The high alk of reef crystals has slowly brought my alk from 6.5 to currently around 8 and everything seems to be loving it. My ca reactor is running at nothing more than a maintenance rate to keep my alk from decreasing at all. The corals have shown new growth that I haven't seen in almost a year. Corraline algea is finally starting to grow. Everything seems much happier in many ways.
If I try increasing the ca reactor effluent or increase ca/alk dosing in any way the corals still get very irritated, but as long as I only use the supplementation as a maintenance dose then everything is happy. Since everything is happy right now I'm not about to screw with a good thing by experimenting any further. I'm content leaving it as a mystery and will chalk it up as yet another complex issue that I was able to eventually overcome.
Then there is that continual question in the back of my mind...... What if I tried changing things a bit to get even better growth rates. Something like using kalk as a supplement instead of the ca reactor because it has such a higher pH. That might increase growth rates further.....
I'm going to ponder that thought for a few weeks. I can't ever stop monkeying around with some aspect of the tanks chemistry. LOL!!
Jeremy
The high alk of reef crystals has slowly brought my alk from 6.5 to currently around 8 and everything seems to be loving it. My ca reactor is running at nothing more than a maintenance rate to keep my alk from decreasing at all. The corals have shown new growth that I haven't seen in almost a year. Corraline algea is finally starting to grow. Everything seems much happier in many ways.
If I try increasing the ca reactor effluent or increase ca/alk dosing in any way the corals still get very irritated, but as long as I only use the supplementation as a maintenance dose then everything is happy. Since everything is happy right now I'm not about to screw with a good thing by experimenting any further. I'm content leaving it as a mystery and will chalk it up as yet another complex issue that I was able to eventually overcome.
Then there is that continual question in the back of my mind...... What if I tried changing things a bit to get even better growth rates. Something like using kalk as a supplement instead of the ca reactor because it has such a higher pH. That might increase growth rates further.....
I'm going to ponder that thought for a few weeks. I can't ever stop monkeying around with some aspect of the tanks chemistry. LOL!!Jeremy
Chris Lakies
Active member
If it aint broke dont fix it 
KrazyOnetime
New member
Glad to hear your having some positive results, I on the other just finished pulling 1/2 of all my sps out to throw thier skeletons away. Horrible.
Bennytheblenny
Reef Geek
My troubles seem to have resolved since I switched salt mixes. I now use reef crystals which has a vey high alk (previously used tropic marin and red sea which have very low alk levels). When I do water changes the corals respond very positively - increased polyp ext, better feeding response at night, full tissue expansion, etc...
The high alk of reef crystals has slowly brought my alk from 6.5 to currently around 8 and everything seems to be loving it. My ca reactor is running at nothing more than a maintenance rate to keep my alk from decreasing at all. The corals have shown new growth that I haven't seen in almost a year. Corraline algea is finally starting to grow. Everything seems much happier in many ways.
If I try increasing the ca reactor effluent or increase ca/alk dosing in any way the corals still get very irritated, but as long as I only use the supplementation as a maintenance dose then everything is happy. Since everything is happy right now I'm not about to screw with a good thing by experimenting any further. I'm content leaving it as a mystery and will chalk it up as yet another complex issue that I was able to eventually overcome.
Then there is that continual question in the back of my mind...... What if I tried changing things a bit to get even better growth rates. Something like using kalk as a supplement instead of the ca reactor because it has such a higher pH. That might increase growth rates further.....
Jeremy
Status update on this? Hope things are going well.
