Started cycling - a few questions for the experts.

[xaflatoonx]

Started my FIRST EVER SALTWATER TANK this weekend.
Thank you to ALL OF YOU for helping out so far. Will be making a BUILD THREAD soon to share pics and all. Waiting for tank to clear up - its got a sand storm in there right now. Super FREAKIN excited!

a few more questions please

90 Gallon tank.
100 lb dry rock ( will add 10-15 lb live rock from LFS when i get a chance)
80 lb live sand


1. Do I need to use the skimmer during initial cycle? I have only filled up water enough so it doesnt fall into the overflow box - so if I DO need to start the skimmer now - i will add more water to the tank so it can start going into the overflow and then go through the skimmer and back to tank.
2. Sg is now at 1.020 using a full 160G bucket of instant ocean - does that sound right? Should i increase to 1.025 or keep it there?
3. Can I use Red Sea Coral pro going forward and mix with Isntant ocean? Am hearing people rave about RSCP... so was thinking about switching.
4. Do I need to put a shrimp (frozen without skin or with skin and legs) to add to my tank? Do I change it or let it dissolve completely?
5. Current temp at 79 degrees - do I need to change this?
6. Not turning on the LEDs through the cycle process yes?
7. Do I need to do a water change DURING or AFTER the initial cycle? If so what % and when?
8. doing the tests - which tests do I need to do and how often? Which elements do I need to track?
9. What is the general cycle of these elements - what to expect?
10. How many damsels should I add? When? And how much should I feed them a day? i hear they are excellent cycle starters.

 

[thegrun]

1. I usually wait a couple of weeks before I start the skimmer. Assuming you will have a 4 week cycle this would give you two weeks to break in your new skimmer before you really need it. I would fill up the tank and sump to full operating height to test everything out; you don't want to wait to the last minute to test the system under full operational conditions.
2. Increase the salinity to 1.025. You can do this by simply topping off the evaporated water with saltwater.
3. You can switch salts now if you want, but when you are first starting a tank and there are no corals there is very little need for a high end salt like Red Sea Pro.
4. You are going to need some source of ammonia to start your cycle, either a couple of dead raw shrimps or pure ammonia. If you go the ammonia route use pure ammonia without surfactants (available at most hardware stores). To be sure the ammonia does not contain surfactants shake the bottle and if it bubbles up like dish soap it has surfactants in it, pure ammonia will not have bubbles. To raise 100 gallons of water from 0 to 2 ppm ammonia you would need to add 0.8 grams (8 ml) of standard 10% pure ammonia.
5. 79 degrees is good.
6. No lights needed or wanted during the cycle unless your rock already has corals on it which since you are using dry rock it does not.
7. You do not need to make water changes during the cycle. If at the end of the cycle your nitrates or phosphates are high I would make a water change. If the nitrates are over 10 ppm or phosphates over 0.08 I would make at least a 50% water change.
8. During the cycle I would at first test ammonia daily and salinity, after a week add nitrites to the daily testing and after two weeks add nitrates. After the cycle is complete you no longer need to test for ammonia or nitrites unless you suspect a problem. I would recommend you continue to test weekly for ammonia for the first couple of months to be sure the ammonia levels don't start to jump back up as you add livestock. I would test weekly for alkalinity, salinity, temperature, nitrates, phosphates and if you keep stony corals add magnesium and calcium to the list. Keep a log, there is one posted here on Reef Central: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2089309&page=40
9. You should first see ammonia rise and then as it starts to drop nitrites should start to rise. When the nitrites rise and then drop to zero your initial cycle is complete. As the nitrites start to drop you should see the nitrates start to rise.
10. DO NOT ADD ANY LIVESTOCK DURING THE CYCLE!!!! It is cruel and completely unnecessary to subject livestock to ammonia poisoning during the cycle. Look to someone else for advice if they tell you to add fish during the cycle.

 

[xaflatoonx]

thank you sir.

all noted - and that log is amazing.

I know the list was long - but you took the time out to answer IN DETAIL all of them - guys like you make this confusing yet amazingly rewarding hobby for noobs like me - VERY VERY FUN and easy.

thank you.

 

[uncleL]

If you don't want to wait!! You could use the Bacteria and add two Clowns and the cycle is completed in a week. I cycled my 90G that way

 

[acabgd]

And I wouldn't add damsels anyway, before or after cycle. You've been probably told by your LFS to add a "hardy" fish like a damsel, but they are mean fish and you don't need them to cycle your tank.
Also, raw shrimp with no head/legs, add and wait (test) for ammonia to rise. Once it rises take it out.
Once cycled add your CUC first, wait a few weeks, test, then add one or two fish. Then add one per week at the max, preferably two weeks.

 

[xaflatoonx]

i got a bottle of live bacteria to put in my tank... but it seems like i will have to wait.

I was at the LFS and mentioned that i had to use ALL the 160G bucket of instant ocean for my 90 gallon water... and its still at 1.020 sg only.

he said something is not right - and asked me to bring the water and the refractometer in for calibration. Although i did calibrate it with the liquid they sent. But i guess i didnt do it right... he said the SG is probably way too high right now - so i will have to wait and get it tested to see.

so now the plan is to use fish food (flakes) to create ammonia... since they didnt have any liquid ammonia - they said to use fish food instead. And i can add in a shrimp (thanks acabgd for clarifying what type)... i will probably use a net/bag so its easier to take out later.

So - first is to get the sg right and ensure its 1.021-1.023
then add fish food and the shrimp which should increase the ammonia.

Once ammonia starts going down - will start checking for nitrite

Once nitrite starts going down - will start checking for nitrate.

I think - that is what you guys advised as well.
Please correct me if i made a mistake in the above process.

 

[Sk8r]

I run all equipment and put lights on timer, because chemistry works better and faster with warmth (but not too much warmth) and getting a new tank warmed up and functioning within a narrow 'heat budget' so that its nighttime cooldown and daytime heating balance between 78-80 is a bit tricky. Since your lights and pumps are a major heat source along with your heater, it's a good thing to get all that settled and running well before you finish.

 

[Mhay]

If you don't want to wait!! You could use the Bacteria and add two Clowns and the cycle is completed in a week. I cycled my 90G that way

There are no guarantees on this. And with dry rock I would be incredibly surprised by a week cycle. No living animals should be put into a tank until it is fully cycled. Yes, both damsels and clowns are hardy and can live through it but I don't think you would appreciate living through something with your lungs burning.

 

[thegrun]

...and for salinity I would get closer to the ocean's salinity, shoot for 1.025.

 

[Reefer4evaa]

I wouldn't even attempt to put fish or clean up crew in there till your ammonia reads zero,your nitrite reads zero and your nitrates read zero,if you waited this long you can wait a few more weeks and have a guarantee of a better fish survival

 

[JWClark]

Haven't seen this addressed but if you used a 160g bucket of salt for 90g of water--assuming no rock displacement--and your SG is only 1.020 then something is wrong.

What did you use to measure? Do not do anything until you get a salinity standard and use to calibrate a refractometer to test your water.

I measured my set up w/ a refractometer to 34ppt (calibrated w/ RODI to 0) and my apex measured 36ppt and a hydrometer read 36 as well. Got a salinity standard and it turns out my refractometer was right--even though the other two measures agreed w/ each other.

You either have a LOT more volume than 90g or your salinity is WAY high.

 

[JoelA7]

Please don't rush. No good will come of it. Listen to the experience of thegrun and Sk8r above. To reinforce what was said:

Get an inorganic source of ammonia. It needs to have no additives such as surfactants. My neighborhood hardware store sells Ace brand 10% ammonium hydroxide. Perfect. I forget the formula to calculate how much you need to add to get 1.5 ppm. But that's what you want to hit. Or up to 2 ppm. Mix the ammonium hydroxide in a couple of quarts of tank water and then very slowly add it to the tank where there's plenty of current to disperse it. Test every day until you are back to zero. Repeat until your tank processes the NH3 from 1.5 to 0 in 24 hours.

Once your tank processed the first batch of NH3 to zero you should be getting progressively higher nitrite readings. Do one or two more NH3 to zero and you should have plenty of NO2. Test daily as it should start to come down and at the same time NO3 will be rising. NO water changes yet.

When nitrite has dropped to zero you have cycled. Do some big water changes and start to ghost feed a little bit each day to keep your bacteria bed happy while you start to stock your tank.

Good luck! It's bloody addicting.

 

[myofibroblast]

Please don't rush. No good will come of it. Listen to the experience of thegrun and Sk8r above. To reinforce what was said:

Get an inorganic source of ammonia. It needs to have no additives such as surfactants. My neighborhood hardware store sells Ace brand 10% ammonium hydroxide. Perfect. I forget the formula to calculate how much you need to add to get 1.5 ppm. But that's what you want to hit. Or up to 2 ppm. Mix the ammonium hydroxide in a couple of quarts of tank water and then very slowly add it to the tank where there's plenty of current to disperse it. Test every day until you are back to zero.

ACE brand sells 10% ammonium hydroxide in an aqueous solution. Make sure you correct for the ammonium portion in the ammonium hydroxide when calculating the appropriate volume to use. Using the volumes recommended by "thegrun" will lead to inaccurate dosing if you don't adjust for the ammonium portion of the ammonium salt. Always read the label.

RE: testing daily ammonia level post dosing - testing to ensure you've dosed appropriately is fine, but subsequent to that daily checks are a wonderful way to waste reagents unless one actually has a practical purpose for those daily values.

My 2 cents.

 

[xaflatoonx]

JWClark - you sir - have hit the nail on the head with a SLEDGEHAMMER!

my salinity was waaaaay off.

Here is what happened.

I ordered a refractomenter - and it came with a liquid to calibrate it. That is what i used.
When i was setting up my water - i kept putting salt and checking in every other hour to see what the salinity was. It was just way below 0. So I kept adding salt and adding and adding. and then adding some more.

Eventually used up the whole damn thing. The salinity got to 1.020.

It just didnt feel right - kept thinking about it - and then the LFS guy yesterday mentioned that too. So i took a sample to them and their hydrometer was going bonkers!

so i came back home - and adjusted my refractometer with the RO/DI water. salinity was at 1.05.

Did a 25% water change and it came down to 1.04.
Will do another 50% or so tonight and will bring it down to 1.023 (seems like consensus on what it needs to be at this stage).

But yes - my freakin refractometer calibrating liquid was ****!
wasted all my salt because of it.

 

[thegrun]

I would not bring the salinity down to 1.023, 1.025 or 1.026 is where you want it to be.

 

[xaflatoonx]

thegrun - help me understand that a bit please.

The guy at LFS says it should be between 1.021-1.023.

Not saying who is wrong or right - but trying to learn the WHY of each.

 

[uncleL]

Once you have your tank up and running with your set salinity lets say 1.025....yes Now when you do water changes make sure its topped off with fresh water first salt doesn't evaporate....then change your water.

 

[thegrun]

thegrun - help me understand that a bit please.

The guy at LFS says it should be between 1.021-1.023.

Not saying who is wrong or right - but trying to learn the WHY of each.

The ocean's salinity varies from region to region, but is generally in the 1.026 range. Corals and invertebrates do better when kept at close to natural seawater salinities. Many fish stores keep their fish tank salinity in the 1.021-1.023 range both to save money on salt and because fish are typically shipped from overseas at low a salinity to reduce the toxicity of ammonia that the fish produce during shipment. Keeping the store tanks at these lower salinities makes it easier to acclimate the new fish the store receives since they are already shipped in low salinity saltwater. I haven't noticed any drawbacks to keeping fish at a lower salinity (1.023) but it would stand to reason that even fish would do better at the salinities they are accustomed to. If you plan on keeping a tank with corals and invertebrates then you want your salinity at 1.025-1.026.

 

[xaflatoonx]

makes perfect sense.... thank you.

 

[pREEFERED]

hello all! definitely following this thread as i just started to cycle my 90g as well...

i added 2 raw shrimp yesterday, as opposed to adding 2 clowns (very happy i went the fish friendlier route) and have seen my ammonia level rise over night (0.2 - using red sea test kit)... is there a specific number i should allow the ammonia to increase to and then remove the shrimp, or do i leave them in until the end of the cycle?

thanks in advance!