Stealing names

[James77]

Pedigree corals....that will be the day I know this nonsense of super corals has gone to far . Maybe we can have vaccination certs for when they are dipped as well? Like a nice little medallion you hang off the coral like you do for a rabies vac on you pooch?

 

[Gill_bucket]

I totally get the silly factor. However I like seeing a coral and then, at a later date, be able to find a piece just like it.

It seems to me that it may actually benefit the reef as well. You guys keep talking about the good old days when you could get a 100 Zoas for next to nothing, didn't those all have to get collected? If every toadstool goes back to one Tyree named, doesn't that mean that none but the first were collected from the wild?

It also seems to me that the overal quality of the corals improve, to use the Tyree toadstool as an example again, isn't it much more colorful than most (if not all) wild collected specimens? And as far as the price goes, it does come down, just look at the Hollywood stunner chalice: people practically give it away for free!!!!

As I said before I'm not trying to convince anyone that naming corals is the way it should be done. I'm just pointing out that selling a coral under a false name is just plain wrong.

 

[CyclistMT]

As I said before I'm not trying to convince anyone that naming corals is the way it should be done. I'm just pointing out that selling a coral under a false name is just plain wrong.

I get what you're saying and why you want to pursue "named" corals. And that's totally fine if that's your choice.

But lacking an independent oversight organization that can hold growers/sellers accountable to lineage (as silly as that sounds), at worst, what this seller is doing is called "marketing". If your ethics don't allow for a similarly colored coral to be called by the same lineage name, then don't buy it from that seller. But, he has done nothing intrinsically "wrong".

Honestly we should view these "names" as a way to describe the color of a certain type of coral and other look a likes. For example, if I buy a some "Tub's" blue zoas from any of the reputable sponsors of RC, how do I know I'm getting a direct descendant of Tub's originally colony? But if is looks like a Tub's, acts like a Tub's, and smells like a Tub's, does it matter if it's a completely different set of zoa's from the wild?

 

[Gill_bucket]

I see your point and I guess I agree. I was just surprised/shocked, that what I thought was a reputable dealer, would act this way. Once again I diverge; if they are selling healthy live stock with accurate polyp counts, I guess they are still reputable. It just seems like intentional miss reputation to me, but that assumption is based on my own bias.

I guess I'm not as concerned with lineage as I am with accuracy and this seller went from calling them Darth Mauls to Sopranos to Gold Mauls in no time flat. I personally won't be buying from this seller and I have a feeling others would choose not to as well, if they knew the truth about them.

I know they didn't tecnically break any rules/laws but I still think they are miss leading people, in order to get their money. That (to me at least) isn't morally sound, perhapse I'm holding them to to high a standard?

 

[terrypercula]

I gotta be honest it sounded like he didn't know what they were lol

 

[lostintheocean]

the only names that matter are the scientific ones, all the common names are a dime a dozen.. lineage is irrelevant, its a coral.

 

[Hudzon]

I think most names given to Zoas and Palys and a lot of corals are just for common identification not linage, if you buy a ATL, Tyree, JF, GARF or the like than yes you would expect linage, but just the name itself I would not. Kind of like buying a Purple Bonsai or a marked GARF Purple Bonsai, I would expect the later to have lineage back to GARF and the other to look like it but not have or know the lineage.

 

[Patroklos]

I wouldn't poopoo the idea of pedegree corals with supporting papers too much. If and when the wild coral trade is cut off completely those papers may be required to prove you have aquacultured stock.

 

[Gill_bucket]

the only names that matter are the scientific ones, all the common names are a dime a dozen.. lineage is irrelevant, its a coral.

Like I said before if you don't like names don't buy named corals. It's really not irrelevant to a lot of people though.

 

[Gill_bucket]

I think most names given to Zoas and Palys and a lot of corals are just for common identification not linage, if you buy a ATL, Tyree, JF, GARF or the like than yes you would expect linage, but just the name itself I would not. Kind of like buying a Purple Bonsai or a marked GARF Purple Bonsai, I would expect the later to have lineage back to GARF and the other to look like it but not have or know the lineage.

This simply isn't true. If you purchase a Oregon Blue Tort it SHOULD trace back to my LFS UPSCALES. If you haven't seen this coral I suggest you google it. It has a much slower growth rate than the Cali Tort but the richness of its blue is unparalleled. I guess with what this seller (reefgardener) is doing, what you say is becoming true. If this seller is tacking on whatever name is hot, who's to say they aren't tacking on Tyree?

My local club just named a new wild Zoa, the "Krakatoa" We all came up with different names and the winner (the current president of our club) won a $100 gift certificate to GB. The name hasn't been trademarked to the best of my Knowladge, so you could sell people Zoas under this name. I really can't understand how that would be anything but dishonest though?

You can all complain about how much that zoa went for (I saw the thread...) but the reality is if that colony had been sold for $40 to one individual, it more than likly would have died in a crash years from now or worse yet lasted a week in inexperienced hands. With the price it fetched at auction (with its cartoon name) it will, in time, make it into tanks all over the world. It's lineage will most likly continue as long as this hobby does and the price WILL come down.

P.S. I have seen the Krakatoa in person and the pics do not do it justice.

 

[CyclistMT]

My local club just named a new wild Zoa, the "Krakatoa" We all came up with different names and the winner (the current president of our club) won a $100 gift certificate to GB. The name hasn't been trademarked to the best of my Knowladge, so you could sell people Zoas under this name. I really can't understand how that would be anything but dishonest though?

You can all complain about how much that zoa went for (I saw the thread...) but the reality is if that colony had been sold for $40 to one individual, it more than likly would have died in a crash years from now or worse yet lasted a week in inexperienced hands. With the price it fetched at auction (with its cartoon name) it will, in time, make it into tanks all over the world. It's lineage will most likly continue as long as this hobby does and the price WILL come down.

P.S. I have seen the Krakatoa in person and the pics do not do it justice.

In my opinion, this is no different than what the seller you've listed is doing. I haven't see this wonderous new zoa but that's not important to my point.

For arguements sake let's say I got procured the genetitcally idendical wild zoa as what you have named "Krakatoa". Maybe I got it from the same source last week, last month, or even last year. During that time I've been selling/giving it away with no name attached. Now your club comes along and arbirarily assigns it a name (let's face it, that's exactly what you did here). So now I start selling my genetically identical zoa under your made up name so I can make more money on it. Why would my claim that my zoa's are "Krakatoa's" be invalidated just becuase they didn't come out of your club's tank?

That is how fundementally silly this name game is and is exactly what nearly every seller is doing. Both reputable RC sponsors and individual hobby sellers. Making up names or assigning "known" names to a look a like to make more profit.

Sorry, I'm not intentionally busting your chops here but you can't have it both ways.

 

[Gill_bucket]

I totally get what your saying and if reef gardener had run a DNA test I would take no issue with it. What they did was quite different. First they said it was Darth Maul then they said Soprano and when ONE person said Gold Maul they decided to go with that. Clearly reefgardener doesn't have much confidence in there own ID skills.

I do agree that what we did was arbitrary, I don't think there is any denning that. However that name was assigned to a specific color morph, if you had the EXACT same zoa you are correct in saying there would be no difference. However going through three names that quickly is anything but exact. I'm not saying that this zoa will never be imported again but I am saying that if you have a similar zoa that isn't quite as bright or hardy or that has a different growth pattern it should get a different name.

In the end (besides DNA testing) the only way to truly be sure is to have lineage. And don't forget reefgardener is getting bigger profits for itself through all of this. People are paying good money to get EXACTLY what they want, shouldn't they get what they pay for?

I have noticed some people pay a lot less attention to details than others and for them I can see how crazy this must all seem. If you don't notice router marks on acrylic paying more for a true professional to build you tank must make no sense at all, to others it matters a great deal. I don't mean to imply that you don't pay attention to detail as I'm pretty sure you do. I'm just thinking of people I've seen with "Hornets" that upon closer inspection either have imperfect rings or lack the alternating skirts IE AOIs are not blue hornets.

I do agree though that if you have the same Zoa it is the same wether or not it can be traced back in captivity, because the wild lineage would clearly be the same. However in this case I don't believe this is the case. In this case reefgardener is clearly miss IDing by their own omission. It's close enough for them, so long as they get paid. I just think its unfair to the buyer.

 

[Gill_bucket]

P.S. with any luck in 2 or 3 years you will get a chance to see the Krakatoa; it is sweet! Much brighter than the Utter Chaos. I just can't wait to see an actual colony. LOL Oh and for the record its not very often that GB names a coral. Reefgardener on the other hand seems to feel its necessary to stamp a name on everything they sell?

 

[CyclistMT]

I totally get what your saying and if reef gardener had run a DNA test I would take no issue with it. What they did was quite different. First they said it was Darth Maul then they said Soprano and when ONE person said Gold Maul they decided to go with that. Clearly reefgardener doesn't have much confidence in there own ID skills.


I do agree though that if you have the same Zoa it is the same wether or not it can be traced back in captivity, because the wild lineage would clearly be the same. However in this case I don't believe this is the case. In this case reefgardener is clearly miss IDing by their own omission. It's close enough for them, so long as they get paid. I just think its unfair to the buyer.

And I can agree that Reefgardner is moving beyond marketing hype and trying to generate profit for profit's sake. The good news is you're savvy enough to know the difference and can take your business elsewhere. For those that aren't and are caught up in the name game, well, a fool and his money are soon parted.

I have looked at some of these "named" coral from various vendors and may end up with some of them but only because I like the way they look. But I'm even willing to find something "close" but not named because the color is what I want in my tank and I can purchase it cheaper. I am willing to give up some of the "details" if it's close because I'm not always looking at my tank through a macro lens.

I have also bought "named" corals from our RC Sponsors becuase I liked the way they looked not becuause of the arbitrary names attached to them by the vendor - Ultra Miami Hurricane Zoa's, Blast Zone Favia, Pluto Favia, et. al. But these were also all very reasonably priced.

What I have noticed over the past couple of years is one of the very best vendors out there go from a description of "Green zoanthid with orange skirt" (which I prefer) to "Ultra Miami Hurricane". At least the prices didn't materially change. It just makes me a bit sad that they felt they had to do this to be competitive.



On a side note I've really got to check my spelling before posting. Sorry for the errors in that last post.

 

[Gill_bucket]

I'm the worst speller ever. LOL. If auto correct isn't working I'm in trouble...

It sounds like we are of the same mind on this topic. I buy what I like as well, and I rarely frag anything. I definitely don't have a bunch of plugs in my tank, I like big colonies. I also don't spend a lot on a single polyp. It just irked me when I saw this on Facebook.

 

[betamed]

The problem with named corals is people take names way to seriously. DNA tests to confirm linage? Honestly its refreshing to see a vendor not all caught up in the name thing trying to squeeze every penny out of a 1 polyp frag

 

[Gill_bucket]

The problem with named corals is people take names way to seriously. DNA tests to confirm linage? Honestly its refreshing to see a vendor not all caught up in the name thing trying to squeeze every penny out of a 1 polyp frag

Your not talking about reefgardener are you? They name every wild Acan they sell. LOL

 

[jinks]

I can't wait to see the price they mark up coral to once some ones does start giving pedigree with DNA. All so people can puff their chest and say that they have true X coral. The only way I really see it as disreputable is if they are really trying to mislead you on what it is or where it came from. Saying its ORA red planet when you don't know that's where it came from is dishonest in my book. I could care less where it came from if it has the same qualities, but I find the use of the business tag to be crossing a line. Just call it red planet if your not positive and ill buy it just the same. The other thing that I more so have an issue with is using a name and a stock photo for something that you have that might color up like the picture. This sounds like what they were doing. Name or no name the picture should be wysiwyg or of the mother colonies. I'm okay with names for the general sake of description. Just take them with a grain of salt.

 

[Gill_bucket]

Well said. I still don't see the need for the name if you don't know what you have though. Just use a WYSIWYG pic and leave it at that. Reefgardener does sell ORA this and Tyree that. After learning they are naming wild stuff willy nilly, I seriously question that anything they have listed is accurate.

 

[jinks]

I can understand not wysiwyg on everything that could make for a lot of clutter on a web page when you have 20 frags of 50 corals. I'm good with a honest pic of the mother where the pic isn't so tweaked that the sand looks blue. If you do that then you can give it what ever crazy name you like. I do get a kick out of walking around a frag swap and seeing grown men say is that the ultra bubble gum death ring or what ever odd name people have come up with. The names have their place. It's an easy way to describe the looks of something, but that's about it. Just use your eyes if it looks good for the price buy it. Down side to names is people learn the coral by them. They don't Lear to ID a coral and its care by looks so when names get switch they are boned.