Steps to BB?

[King-Kong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10147587#post10147587 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ralphie16
on what basis are you two claiming that less live rock is better?

does not make sense to me.

more live rock, greater diversity of life, greater capacity for bacterial colonization, greater capacity of hiding spots to make the fish feel secure, greater stability of water parameters

Because that diversity isnt necessary. Search around, and you'll see coral tanks with absolutely 0 live rock successfully growing out SPS corals.

Larger bacteria colonies do not make the tank more stable. They do the opposite. When you've got all that bacteria in a tank, it becomes the primary biomass, and so much of the care of the tank is now dedicated towards it. Not towards the fish, or the corals. If that large biomass is angered, it will release what it is made up of, polluting the tank. This is why traditional DSB tanks require such consistant parameters. If you cause that giant population of bacteria to die off, your tank is toast. Additionally, the large colony of bacteria will soak up your alkalinity. It's another reason why BB tanks have lower alk/ca demands, and can get away with not running Ca reactors.

Ill agree with the fish comment, though -- it does make them feel more comfortable.

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10147587#post10147587 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ralphie16
on what basis are you two claiming that less live rock is better?

does not make sense to me.

more live rock, greater diversity of life, greater capacity for bacterial colonization, greater capacity of hiding spots to make the fish feel secure, greater stability of water parameters

More rock invariably means more dead spots. The more rock you put in, the more flow you need to keep water between the rocks moving. You put 2lbs per gallon, and you can have 200x turnover, and still have deadspots. You put 1/2lb per gallon, and you've got no dead spots with 30x turnover.

Nice open rocks structures work much better than rockpiles.

 

[hurleycr]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10147408#post10147408 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Sorry to be the resident nutjob, but i have to chime in.


I firmly believe that everything we are talking about with BB, IE, Less rock, more flow, big skimmers, etc, is of benefit to reef tanks in general, and not just BB.

I follow you, but what is IE? I totally agree with you, however if like me when you started everything you read was DSB is the god sent, and Live Rock helps stabilize the tank. Then it is nearly impossible to have big time flow, though the rest is 100% true in my opinion when i started off I had an Aqua C 120 which did good when I had my 55 and 75. Then when I upgraded to the 120 it just didn't cut it, so I got another one because I kind of like the Aqua C and still do. (Just not for bigger tanks). However the only thing I succeeded in doing was shutting one skimmer down while the other worked. So I had to change again.... Anyone reading this buy a big skimmer regardless of tank size it helps so much it isn't funny. Totally disregard the recommended tanks size for skimmers. I totally learned the hard way, not to mention the expensive way. I did everything I could to get more flow with my sand bed, but at some point you hit a threashold and sand goes everywhere.

But I follow your thought process, those things help tremendously in anytank, however if you don't pre-plan well, you end up limiting yourself one way or another. Just as you said, you go with 2lbs a gallon it doesn't matter how much flow you get, your not going to get water to pass through the live rock.

 

[hurleycr]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10147207#post10147207 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by King-Kong
I know that bomber has said repeatidly that hes not worried with the detritus that settles under the boards. The consideration he makes is; the boards are flat, the bottom is flat.. just how much detritus can really collect? Not more than is in a given piece of rock, so worry about other things.

Also, be sure to give your stags room to grow vertically. (ie; dont stack the rocks too high).

otherwise, looking good!

Yeah its hard to get a idea of the height until I get it together, I was thinking mid tank is as high as I want to go.

By the way the chop saw idea. It freakin works like crazy if you have a steady hand you can make a round rock flat on one side, or make a slice for lack of better words. It can make a nice tabled ledge, its a little too straight but I'm still playing with it. I think it will work. Its starting to come together in my head quite nicely now that I'm playing with some scrap rocks. Now that i'm looking at it I think I will be able to reduce the rock by 50%. I'm getting so excited.

Dang vortech's are on back order.... do you have both on the back of the tank going to the front. What would you recommend, I will have two initally, and get a third later. Hopefully 9000gph of turnover will be enough. Not including the return.

 

[hurleycr]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10147587#post10147587 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ralphie16
on what basis are you two claiming that less live rock is better?

does not make sense to me.

more live rock, greater diversity of life, greater capacity for bacterial colonization, greater capacity of hiding spots to make the fish feel secure, greater stability of water parameters

I once believed the same thing. I read, and read, and read.... everything I saw said live rock is a great thing have lots and plenty of it. What they didn't tell you is sooner or later that same rock would collect crap out of the sand bed and will release the crap. Literally!!

I once had a nice clean tank, now I believe my rock is the cause of PO4 getting into the tank. I have checked, checked, and is the only thing it can be other than the sand. Rich maybe you can chime in here, I don't understand the biology of it all .... YET. But I think basically the rock collects the PO4 and when its full it releases it. I don't know how it collects it, but apparently it does. This is why i'm going BB..

 

[RichConley]

The rock doesnt really release anything... it just hides the fact that Po4 is a problem for a long time, and then when it stops being able to take up any more, you have problems.

At that point, you start getting high levels in the water... and even water changes dont help, because cleaning the water up just makes the water pull more of it out of the rock.

Essentially, rock can hide bad husbandry, but not for long.

 

[King-Kong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10148719#post10148719 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hurleycr
Dang vortech's are on back order.... do you have both on the back of the tank going to the front. What would you recommend, I will have two initally, and get a third later. Hopefully 9000gph of turnover will be enough. Not including the return.

I've got my 3 Vortechs all a long the back glass, but I've been thinking more and more about them, and realize while their flow is incredible and wide and all these great things, I still need more variety in my flow.

That is to say, I need [basically] a spray bar a long the bottom back wall that will create a steady strong stream across the entire 1"-2" bottom of the tank... once that's accomplished, I just need a medium amount of flow around the rocks, and then i'd prolly like medium flow in the general current.

Right now, I have high flow EVERYWHERE. Against the rock, against the bottom, in the open water.

In some spots the fish can ride it perfectly, and just sit in the flow, but some areas they avoid, because the flow is too strong.

The issue, is, when the fish pass by sections of strong current, it looks unnatural, and pulls attention to the pump. This breaks the "natural" feel of the reef.

I am still messing with my flow, and trying to consider how to fix it, however. So, I would take your time with figuring out your return flow and powerhead configurations, and how to mate this with your rock.

 

[ralphie16]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10147747#post10147747 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by King-Kong
Because that diversity isnt necessary. Search around, and you'll see coral tanks with absolutely 0 live rock successfully growing out SPS corals.

Larger bacteria colonies do not make the tank more stable. They do the opposite. When you've got all that bacteria in a tank, it becomes the primary biomass, and so much of the care of the tank is now dedicated towards it. Not towards the fish, or the corals. If that large biomass is angered, it will release what it is made up of, polluting the tank. This is why traditional DSB tanks require such consistant parameters. If you cause that giant population of bacteria to die off, your tank is toast. Additionally, the large colony of bacteria will soak up your alkalinity. It's another reason why BB tanks have lower alk/ca demands, and can get away with not running Ca reactors.

Ill agree with the fish comment, though -- it does make them feel more comfortable.

Not if you plan on keeping fish that release ammonia into the water, then live rock is important. Don't know anybody with SPS only tank without any fish but I guess if thats what you are running then it will work. But you need the surface area for the aerobic and anaerobic bacteria to colonize. DSB's crash because they can only absorb so much nutrients before they release it back. The bacteria on a piece of live rock will not "get angry and crash". They simply stabilize their population based on the energy source (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, etc) available. That is why you will not see a BB tank crash if it is set up properly (high flow, big skimmer, plenty of live rock).

 

[ralphie16]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10147854#post10147854 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
More rock invariably means more dead spots. The more rock you put in, the more flow you need to keep water between the rocks moving. You put 2lbs per gallon, and you can have 200x turnover, and still have deadspots. You put 1/2lb per gallon, and you've got no dead spots with 30x turnover.

Nice open rocks structures work much better than rockpiles.

you put in too little live rock and you will not have a large enough surface area for bacteria colonization to properly support the fish population (assuming you have a decent fish bioload). The waste of the fish come in large spurts after feedings. If your bacteria population is not great enough it will not be able to convert the ammonia to less harmful substances quick enough and you will have elevated levels of ammonia until the are able to process it.

again with SPS only tank with no fish is a different story but we are talking about fish tanks right?

 

[ralphie16]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10147854#post10147854 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
More rock invariably means more dead spots. The more rock you put in, the more flow you need to keep water between the rocks moving. You put 2lbs per gallon, and you can have 200x turnover, and still have deadspots. You put 1/2lb per gallon, and you've got no dead spots with 30x turnover.

Nice open rocks structures work much better than rockpiles.

again, its all about correctly positioning your flow, if you see see my pics i have 6 powerheads in my tank and there is current in every single part of the tank, even between rocks. i check so myself with an air bubbler.

 

[ralphie16]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10148748#post10148748 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hurleycr
I once believed the same thing. I read, and read, and read.... everything I saw said live rock is a great thing have lots and plenty of it. What they didn't tell you is sooner or later that same rock would collect crap out of the sand bed and will release the crap. Literally!!

I once had a nice clean tank, now I believe my rock is the cause of PO4 getting into the tank. I have checked, checked, and is the only thing it can be other than the sand. Rich maybe you can chime in here, I don't understand the biology of it all .... YET. But I think basically the rock collects the PO4 and when its full it releases it. I don't know how it collects it, but apparently it does. This is why i'm going BB..

DSB and live rock are two distinct things so you cant lump them together

the po4 is in the rock yes. easily resolved though. you can either let the rocks sit in a light-free container for several months and po4 will leach out or you can have them in your tank setup and they will eventually leach out the po4 but slower. this is not a problem because you are doing water changes and can run a phosphate reactor.

i did not "cook" my rocks in a dedicated container, and except for some algae outbreaks in the first year, i have an algae free tank with my phosphates very near zero. I do feed 8 times a day so i do have phosphates but its gets removed from the water as quick as i add it.

 

[ralphie16]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10148877#post10148877 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by King-Kong


The issue, is, when the fish pass by sections of strong current, it looks unnatural, and pulls attention to the pump. This breaks the "natural" feel of the reef.

I have over 100 dives under my belt and trust me, currents are very strong in the ocean.

I have two very strong currents in my tank that i set up and my fish prefer that area. They wait on the side of the powerhead and then rush forward along with the current and ride it out. Then they go back to the same spot and do it again and again.

The trick is to hide the powerhead, which will make it look more "natural". Can you see any powerheads in my tank? I have 6!

 

[King-Kong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10149521#post10149521 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ralphie16
Not if you plan on keeping fish that release ammonia into the water, then live rock is important. Don't know anybody with SPS only tank without any fish but I guess if thats what you are running then it will work. But you need the surface area for the aerobic and anaerobic bacteria to colonize. DSB's crash because they can only absorb so much nutrients before they release it back. The bacteria on a piece of live rock will not "get angry and crash". They simply stabilize their population based on the energy source (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, etc) available. That is why you will not see a BB tank crash if it is set up properly (high flow, big skimmer, plenty of live rock).

There is enough surface area available on most tanks to quickly convert the ammonia to nitrite. This is then uptaken by the bacteria into a form that can be skimmed out. This form has to be skimmed out quickly before it turns into nitrate.

You dont need nearly as much LR as you seem to be implying to achieve this.

Also, I am referring to bacteria in DSBs when I am discussing the issues of crashing bacteria colonies. You have the bacteria uptaking your nutrients and slowly growing. If conditions drastically change in your tank (the thing most SPS's are supposed to avoid), then this large colony will respond. What do you think happens when the largest biomass in your tank decides it wants to cut back? A crash, and it will domino.

Bacteria dont get angry -- they react to a shifting environment, and respond accordingly. The trick is to only grow the bacteria where you want it, and to be able to remove it when its free floating, or its wastes are free floating.

 

[King-Kong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10149620#post10149620 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ralphie16
I have over 100 dives under my belt and trust me, currents are very strong in the ocean.

I have two very strong currents in my tank that i set up and my fish prefer that area. They wait on the side of the powerhead and then rush forward along with the current and ride it out. Then they go back to the same spot and do it again and again.

The trick is to hide the powerhead, which will make it look more "natural". Can you see any powerheads in my tank? I have 6!

I dont have nearly as many dives as you, but I've been on the reefs as well. Believe me -- this looks unnatural, and fish in my tank AVOID these spots, and collect in the relatively low flow areas -- which still have very strong laminar flow. Then again, I have 3 vortechs and a Eheim 1262 on a 90g tank.

What are you pushing?

 

[hulley]

I'll have to double check but I believe he did seal the edges.

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10149546#post10149546 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ralphie16
you put in too little live rock and you will not have a large enough surface area for bacteria colonization to properly support the fish population (assuming you have a decent fish bioload). The waste of the fish come in large spurts after feedings. If your bacteria population is not great enough it will not be able to convert the ammonia to less harmful substances quick enough and you will have elevated levels of ammonia until the are able to process it.

again with SPS only tank with no fish is a different story but we are talking about fish tanks right?

No, theres more than enough surface area on your tank walls to handle the tank.

I've seen sps tanks with lots of fish with NO rock.


Count on your skimmer to handle the load, not your rocks.

 

[hurleycr]

This is what I set up while the rest of tank is completed and moved. What do you think? I know bad pciture quality but I'm busy working on the stand today.

The construction phase is going to be completed today, I have lots and lots of sanding to do then its ready for stain. The canopy is complete and ready to go. I have the starboard and acrylic rods and will be completed next weekend once I get the now empty tank cleaned up real good. I will post the pics of my progress shortly. I also recieved my backordered Vortechs yesterday so all is in place. I just got to find the time to get it all completed.

 

[SeanT]

I love my BB tank.
For almost 16 months I was so engrossed with opening a new business I didn't do but ONE 10 gallon water change on a 300 gallon system.

I gave away almost all my corals over a year ago out of fear of them dying due to my inability to care for my tank.

I couldn't find homes for my 2 fish but they are still alive and kicking.

I didn't run my skimmer at all during this time either.

The only things I had to do to get my tank looking pristine again was siphon some, do a water change and remove some Neomeris annulata that had overgrown about 20% of the rock on the right side of my tank.

After that the tank looked great.
I did take out most of the rock and give it a good swishing though and got some brown buckets of water.

Skimmer is back on line and the tank is stable.


Sean

 

[hurleycr]

OK what is that.... I had two of those growing from a rock.

I'm taking that since you posted a pic and you removed it. They aren't good to have.

 

[King-Kong]

Just a macro algae.. relatively slow growing, and uses calcium.